Future of Egypt

right time for Egyption friends to follow right governance, my inputs-

JUSTICE- social, economic and political;

LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship;

EQUALITY of status and of opportunity;

FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and integrity of the Nation;

Syria Jordan Yemen Lybia............and rest...watch it carefully.

right, theexiledsaint, bottomline is being secular & democratic...!!

hope rest of them see it with persepective and reality....

As long as it's secular and democratic who cares about the rest

Good (and satisfying) to note That Mubarak is FORCED to resign and hope it paves the way for a new Era in Egypt, positively.

I see future of egypt lies in a secular socialist democratic republic system.....

sillyguy,

The simple question "Can a Muslim, convert to any other religion?" was to make you think about the answer and if the answer ifs NO, it means you have NO option, therefore not a democratic system, isn’t it?

But forget about it as you can never admit any faults of the ideology in question. You are a brick in their wall ;)

As for Turkey, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan are all part of the MENA region (surprised you didn’t know this).

And the other 3 you pointed out: Bangladesh, Malaysia and Indonesia, all have SECULAR governments.

No government controlled by any one religion can be democratic.

Religions are not democratic and some are less tolerant than others (up to you to interpret this).

four people already shot and killed by now.

Thugs working in the shadows.

Hell, they even sent donkeys yesterday.

We need Du'aa & prayers to ALLAH to bring a peaceful & happy end to this situation

Very scary and very sad. It is obvious that Mubarak does not care for his 'people'. He says he is going in September; what difference will that make? He shouls go now.

Go now and stop this violence amongst the people you serve.

It is violent, sad and gut wrenching.

What I find sad, is this is ordinary people fighting ordinary people...why??

one day Inshallah....

Nic... you can question anything with/without fear and guilt no one stopping you. But don't try to impose your way of thinking on others. You can pass comments/tease other women without guilt/fear but you won't do the same with your own mother/sisters.....you know why? because you believe in them, you respect them.

You started with...Islam and Democarcy. You got the answer and then moved the goal post to...'Can a muslim convert to other religion....". I will give you answer from the quran and then you will move the goal post again and this time very likely.....'Woman treated badly...' and you will keep on moving the goal post.

You should rather ask yourself that tunisian and egyptian rised against their own repressive government for democracy. Oh no you won't accept that because in your view islam and democracy?....no way. Btw, why only stick to MENA region....what about Turkey, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia. Indonesia.

revolution has never been a cakewalk or smooth ride....It has to overcome the high hand of current regime. tough phase started, let's watch what happens.

Interesting that the Pro Mubarak supporters are out now and the army has requested everyone to go back to their houses..

egypt? egyptians? well we all know whats they're capable of..u know what i mean..

Agree with you 100%

britexpat,

All I am saying is that religion should be kept separated from politics.

As for how the Egyptian people want to govern themselves, it’s up to them.

Are we now talking of enforced proportional representation or democracy, where the majority rule.

painther,

Thank you.

Just wanted to add before I go that certain topics cannot be debated with certain people.

Haven’t you noticed the absence of the majority of QLers when these issues arise?

It’s because either you agree or remain in silence. That’s how democracy is tolerated within certain ideologies, as long we remain within the ideology’s boundaries and that – conditioning - can never be called democracy.

A secular elected government is the only assurance for a fare and democratic government that can represent all citizens equally, regardless of their religion or any other differences!

;)

sillyguy,

Haven’t you noticed that I am not Muslim nor belong to any other religion? That is why I can question with no fear or guilt!

Can a Muslim, convert to any other religion?

We don’t need to refer to books, look at the reality all MENA countries are facing!

As for your question regarding democracy, ask the Tunisian and the Egyptians, as I am an infidel as thus my opinion might not count for you ;)

Nic....you made my guess correct.

"Now you can come up with another question why there is no democracy in MENA and blame Islam for that....which is very likely."

What makes you think that DEMOCRACY is the only viable means of governance. Btw, Hitler's govt. was also democratically elected govt. Governance in MENA region is not reflection of islamic rule.

You are asking a question and I am replying but instead of reading it you are outright rejecting it. You are asking about Islam and democracy. I gave you reply from the islamic book and hadith itself. But you are rejecting even that. Then again you ask the same question....sorry I have to use your own word..."Parroting". You heard/read from somewhere that Islam and democracy cannot go together and repeating again and again but not listening to what the other person is saying....and you are still blaming that in islamic society you cannot have meaningful debate.

“do not dare to question but accept and follow blindly what we tell you is the word of god”. Around the world and right here on QL people including you question islam....i haven't heard any one being banned from QL for questioning islam....rather most of the comments are anti-islam on QL.

Nic,

your right to quit is respected;

your insightful (whether we agree or not) point of view is a value addition.

take care :)

(we'll discuss turkey & kemal ataturk some othertime :D)

s_isale, very true. power sure bankrupt the critical/logical thinking, absolute power bankrupt absolutely!

People who have absolute power never steps down on their own. Either they are forced to flee or they face a violent death.

Arian,

'vultures'..haha.. you sure meant political sharks , not the QL ones ..LOL

Hope Mubarak steps down and a democratic government comes to power. The vultures, pls keep quite and mind your own business.

Expatgeezer... Spot on!

painther,

To give you a quick reply: do you want a piece of evidence of Islam not being democratic:

Can a Muslim, convert to any other religion?

We all know the answer.

I won’t proceed with this debate here as it is impossible to have an objective discussion with someone who is inside the eye of the storm.

;)

sillyguy,

I don’t think I was offensive by attributing the metaphor “parrot” to someone who paraphrases others.

If you read carefully what I wrote, I never defended the western culture is perfect (whatever you mean by western. Perhaps you mean the non-Muslim which stands for 75% of the world?!). No, it’s not perfect. Wherever humans have a say, you’ll find imperfection and that includes your west!

But my friend, can you stick with the topic. Here I am, based on history and current world’s status, questioning if Islam or any other religion, can coexist with democracy? And how to you reply? The usual defensive mode: “how about your culture that kills innocent people”! Please debate one issue at a time, avoid replying to a question by diverting your answer to another distinct topic!

Let’s just admit that I agree with you. I never expressed the contrary, did I? So for the sake of this debate, let’s admit that I agree with everything you say about what you call the west and let’s focus our debate on my initial question:

Is religion, particularly Islam, compatible with democracy?

We just need to look at any country in the MENA region to get the answer to this question.

In every situation where one is close to the other, it results in oppression!

Their segregation and a complete removal of religion from politics is an essential precondition for the establishment of true democracy.

The cement that maintains your religion cohesive and unchangeable is: “do not dare to question but accept and follow blindly what we tell you is the word of god”.

This invisible implied principle in Islam other religion, is a major barrier for democracy where “free individual critical thinking” is an essential pillar.

Now, we can be here debating forever (I don’t have the time nor am I interested to change your mind), twisting both sides in order to back up our distinct point of views.

I can ensure you that neither you and me will get anywhere for reasons that I wont bother to remind you of.

So in the absence of a debate, let’s keep in silence and observe the world out there particularly the MENA region where a certain religion commands peoples’ lives and measure how democratic the entire region is. Observe and take your own conclusions.

No further discussions are required.

PS. Abstain from quoting any book as it has no value for me and yes I did studied it.

Brit, so absolutely right...and you'll agree that almost everyone (governments, news agencies, we too at times) does it

(twisting the truth) :)-

painther the toi report was filed at

AP, Feb 1, 2011, 06.16pm IST

Thats around 2:30pm Cairo time.

AlJazeera commentator Ayman also said later in the day that it is not 2 million but less than that.

I remember going to watch a football match in Saudi. the stadium was about 1/3 full.. Yet when i watched the highlights at home, the camera angles used made it seem like it was nearly full :O)

al jazeera says , 2 million protesters (I saw in their "breaking news" clip y'day) and an independent news source http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/A-quarter-million-flood-into-Cairo-demand-Mubaraks-ouster/articleshow/7403870.cms

says a quarter million.

I'm now so keenly watching AlJazeera :)-

And so it begins..

Egypt needs to be democratic - but our man must be in power :O)

Yesterday, Tony B-liar described Hosni Mubarak, the beleaguered Egyptian leader, as "immensely courageous and a force for good" and warned against a rush to elections that could bring the Muslim Brotherhood to power.

"People want a different system of government. They're going to get it. The question is what emerges from that. In particular I think the key challenge for us is how do we help partner this process of change and help manage it in such a way that what comes out of it is open minded, fair, democratic government," he said.

Guardian

hamadaCZ, I tend to agree with you on science, religion education issues while disagree on al jazeera. Today itself AJ reports 2 million people are on Cairo roads/ Tahrir Square while CNN says it in thousands and Live TV shows ( anyone can see it) it’s no way in Millions.

All news houses are biased on different scales but AJ's biasness is little more, I guess :)-

Nic

answer to your query ("Is religion, particularly Islam, compatible with democracy?") is 'Yes' (my perspective while I'm NO expert on the faith issues). I'd give example of Turkey of Kemal Ataturk.

There are two facets of an Idea (or Ideology), One the idea itself and two, implementation of it. Many a times we blame the idea for the poor 'implementation'.

Moreover democracy itself is not the foolproof or 'the ultimate' governing tool. There have been other forms of governments in past, benevolent ones, and future may conceive some other, better, forms of government. This “process’ is eternal it seems.

Religion has no role here and irrelevant, Tunisia was ruled by a tough secular regime for more than 50 years, a regime which was trying hard to copy the west , yet it didn’t achieve any prosperity, justice, job security...etc, but I have to admit, that regime has worked well to eliminate illiteracy, grant women rights and build a good infrastructure. The people of Tunisia are happier now and that what should really count.

History has shown a major intellectual centre in the heart of the Islamic empire called "House of Wisdom" where Jews ,Christians and Muslims were attending it, so science and religion can work hand in hand, science is for the brain and religion is for the heart, the core of all religions is the same, but people tend to forget that. At the moment there is a high illiteracy rate in the Islamic and Arab world, amongst the top 500 universities ,only 3 are from the Middle East ( 3 Saudi), not a single university from Egypt, Lebanon or Iraq, what a shame !

So it’s perfectly fine to elect extremists like the neocons or tea party , but it’s a taboo to elect Hamas or the Muslims brotherhood parties !?

There are many great Egyptians scientists like Nobel laureate in Chemistry Ahmed Zewail, economist Ibrahim Oweiss who is teaching here in Doha at Georgetown, Sir Magdi Yakoub (a devoted Christian) who is a cardio surgeon at the imperial college in London (Harefield hospital) or Osama El Baaz (lead scientist at NASA) and others , such brains should lead Egypt and the Arab world , only and only then things shall improve.

Stop blaming Aljazeera , Aljazeera didn’t torture , humiliate or incite any Egyptian or Arab,Aljazeera didn’t torture and beat Khalid Saaeed to death, their governments did. Aljazeera has fulfilled the gap and the absence of an informative and reputable news channels in the Middle East , am glad to see BBC Arabic back :)

Nic.....good that you lolled. I replied in your own word and style so that you can understand. You questioned Islam and I questioned WESTERN democracy that made you go personal and belligerent. Doesn't it shows the same trait that you are accusing of Muslims...that you cannot question WESTERN ideology?

A little bit of research would have got you answer to your question. But I know it feels good to put questions than doing own research.

Here it is:

The Quran says:

42:38 They respond to their Lord by observing the Contact Prayers (Salat). Their affairs are decided after due consultation among themselves, and from our provisions to them they give (to charity).

Muhammad was so meticulous in following this Quranic injunction that his critics accused him of listening to the people too much! The Quran says:

9:61 Some of them hurt the prophet by saying, “He is all ears!” Say, “It is better for you that he listens to you. He believes in GOD, and trusts the believers. He is a mercy for those among you who believe.” Those who hurt GOD’s messenger have incurred a painful retribution.

Shaykhul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah said:

“This is why those who are in authority are of two groups: the scholars and the rulers. If they are upright, the people will be upright; if they are corrupt, the people will be corrupt.”

Now you can come up with another question why there is no democracy in MENA and blame Islam for that....which is very likely. If fearing Islam makes you happy and gives you sound sleep then keep your irrational fear.

britexpat

I agree with you that all must participate and be accepted even if the majority is obtained by Islamist party. However that does not remove the right to be fearful of Islamism.

One can be prodemocracy and still fear Islamism, that what I meant.

but I will agree to disagree :) And I also hope for a change around the world where people will read and question more, and the media will take back its role investigating and reporting the news. Rupert Murdoch can't live forever, can he? lol

ex.ex.expat,

Read with no limits, infidel material too?

Let’s agree not to continue this discussion here as it diverts from the OP. history has shown the answer, I just hope sometime in the future something will change the trend!

resources, but no where else to my knowledge ;)

isn't bottom line (should be)-

1. irrespective of faith of people (citizen), every citizen has equal right on state resources?

2. and it's equal share/say in governing themselves?

have stifled critical thinking. Again, though, my argument would be to question how much they represent Islam. :)

already a million in Tahrir square

compatible with critical thinking since the first command from God to their prophet was to "read" which is viewed as learning.

to answer, why i am interested?

I'm interested because our interests and fears (i'm talking about all of us, world citizen) are interlinked.

We can't live, survive or even fall in isolation !!!

good to see some seasoned discussion here :)

lol... no, sillyguy. I just called you parrot because you repeated word by word what I write and yet you did it again.

I have to respect the level of input each one is able to provide, so no harm feelings, keep repeating what I write if you can’t come up with anything else and if you wish so.

To refresh your memory, religion was brought in this thread to launch a hypothetical question:

"Is religion, particularly Islam, compatible with democracy?"

This question was launched to stimulate a free debate as the result of what is happening in Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia, Yemen, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and what should happen in all the other MENA countries!

But I know that this debate could never take place here or as a matter of fact in any place where the ideology in question rules.

Nic....lol. Did I hit the wrong nerve?

You seem like a belligerent, who goes on offensive and personal when their view point is challenged and questioned.

Indoctrination of certain ideology which gives them falls pride that my so called democracy, freedom and human rights is better than others, along with hatred for a particular religion makes them blind and deaf.

Btw this thread is about Egypt...why bring religion? Is that because democracy in egypt will hurt the interest of WESTERN govt?

So far questioning of Islam is concerned then you must be aware that thousands of book written against Islam and people still question islam.

Interesting article. You get the govt you deserve.....

Felt sorry for the Palenstians, they get the vote, then vote for Hamas and then no one recogises them!

Mubarak and many others have used the spectre of extremism as a means of waylaying the democratic process.

Democracy must allow for participation of all. I hope that the new Egypt will be secular, but allow all parties to participate.

Future of Egypt will be decided by the Israeilis Oops I mean the Americans!

Brit,

With regards to the article, I don’t consider the western liberals displaying hypocrisy or cynicism, just because they support democracy and fear Islamism. I think most of the world would share these views with them!

Worth reading ..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/01/egypt-tunisia-revolt

Lets hope Mubarak goes and is replaced by a secular democratic government where all Eygptians are free to speak, worship and disagree in peace. A religious based govt would be a disaster for Egypt and the region.

ex.ex.expat,

Regardless if church or religion is with or without the state, in any situation where ideologies are imposed and individual critical thinking is not the norm, democracy cannot flourish.

Isn’t this common sense?

as founded by the Greeks, is representation of the people chosen by the people who are deemed suitable for making that decision and it did not originally have anything to do with the separation of Church and State. That does not clash with Islam as far as I know, and in fact is in accordance with it.

You cannot judge democracy by Modern Western standards. After all, the Greeks never envisioned a system with career politicians or corporate interests like we have today.

somwerNdmiddle,

And that makes the topic non debatable!

That's exactly why the problem is perpetually self-fed.

ex.ex.expat,

Your colleagues can tell you whatever they think.

This ideology cannot be challenged; individual critical thinking is not acceptable. The followers must accept what it imposes. Do you consider this as a good basis for democracy?

I don’t think so... the result is out there to prove it!

Nic, for Hislam you just did

In fact, my colleague told me that Islamic societies are supposed to be governed by a leader chosen by the people. Of course, Modern reality in Arab countries is different but I don't think anyone would say they are representing Islam.

Hislam,

Did I touch on the taboo?

You call it agression, a debate on a possiblity?!

Oh well, it can never be discussed by the followers that is why there is no evolution, no recognition of the problem and therefore no solution.

And we get what we sadly see!

he doesnt sound like hes one big A " "

How easy it is to swith off a conversation to a personal fight

When you are lacking for logic, you start agression.

sillyguy,

You sound like a parrot, a typical defensive mode when lacking of answers.

Indoctrination in a certain ideology does not allow seeing the situation objectively, as questioning that ideology is not allowed.

How can this ever work as the basis of democracy?

but "Ve" have to be "Voried" about the perception of friends alliances and even enemies.

Droping the P / B Egyptian problem and W / V Indian problem, we have to realise that it has been a chronical problem of ours to assume that the world is run in our premises.

hislam my co-worker egyption is busy reading the news on the net while eating bobcorn...

Nic.... Is WESTERN DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM & HUMAN RIGHTS compatible with Real Democracy, Freedom and Human Rights? WE just need to look at those so called WESTERN free countries whose democracy, freedom and human rights claims driven by their own national interest. They can support any dictator as long as HE serve their national interest and they can conspire to throw any democratically elected government which doesn't serve their national interest.

Would you suggest separation of "national interest" from the call of so called WESTERN free and democratic countries?

May be it's too late to join this thread but I couldn't resist expressing my gratitude and a little bit surprise with the friends from India concerned with what's happening in Egypt and entirely No Egyptians are on.

Is religion, particularly Islam, compatible with democracy? We just need to look at any country in the MENA region to get the answer to this question.

In every situation where one is close to the other, it results in oppression!

Their segregation and a complete removal of religion from politics is an essential precondition for the establishment of true democracy.

your concern is only 'business', for egyptians it is their life, past 30 years this dictator is ruining the eqyptian people, by complete force, and the entire west and some arabs given full support also. he has to step down, and I couldnt get what you ment for this power shift to Extremist, who is extremist you tell us please.

Mubarak is the real puppet for the US, west and Israel. and he should step down, and Egyptian people should rule the country, not any more Mubaraks (and everybody know, especially the egyptian people who is this Beradi, US wants if Mubrak is moving then the second puppet El beradi should come to regime... dear the world is changing. cop with it rather than....@#@

China, Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Iran, North Korea and a few others .. its high time for the people of this countries to follow the people of Tunisia and to send the despots into exile with their ill gotten gains to a far away place so that your people can leave in peace, freedom and dignity but dont make the mistake of getting out of one fire and then jumping into another worse one.

I hope what ever is going on ends well. My prayers are with Egyptian brothers and sisters.

the only one seeing al jazeera bias is Hosni Mubarak because it was and still is showing the world the unrest happening in Egypt right now. so how can al jazeera be biased? it's just doing what it's supposed to do.

what was that?

ain't they (Egypt & Qatar) in good terms?? curious !!!

Its time they give back what they got from Egyptian govt earlier.

s_isale, i'm not expert, but i can clearly see biasness in al jazeera's picks & drops of "suitable" news.

eventually that's the case with other news agencies too

Al Jazeera has been blamed for not covering the protest earlier and now it is blamed for showing too much coverage.

Ideally I’d wish to know point of view of real people (Egyptian) on the subject before the attack of Junkie Virus (petty commenters) of QL on this thread.