British Go to Hell!

after 162 precious and worth reading comments, is it OK to say

"British Go to Hell?" ....... lol

ELICS,

lol... from hiding behind the fake Canadian nationality, you now changed to another fake nationality (Qatari).

Aren't you brave enough to display your own real nationality?

Adam,

Unfortunately the immigration policy in the UK and in my country and yours has been up to now, highly driven by $$$$$$ and the need to be political correct with those who seek “political asylum”.

I am starting to defend the idea that our countries should adopt the so effective laws of immigration and religious freedom, in practice by Saudi Arabia!

See the thanks you poms get for allowing people like this to move to your country?

Hope it was worth it.

Say what????

Gents,

Gents, I already disqualify, so stop bothering.

What matters more is what I said since you started and you making no point.

Now be sensible rather just lookin spelling mistakes.

you know what lol stands for...lol

to have anyone believe you are really Canadian.

And the word is "VIOLENT" not "VOILENT". lol

I thought am western as I was Voilent like you butchers but now am sensible :)

Pack your bags too, friendly advise

who the hick are anybody to say this shud be granted the citizenship and this are not..!!!sicko....

Cryspy,

CID ;)

s_isale,

We shouldn’t see it as blaming, instead we should openly acknowledge the fact and treat it. This can only be started by those who have and are recognized as the concerned religion authorities.

ah

QL Police on red....

Elic,

One can easily conclude your background, going through your contribution here in QL. My only question is why you hide your origins?!

misuse is one thing.

it was the same quran that was there at that time as it is now.

If someone misinterprets it for their benefit, why blame islam or quran for it?

Yup NIC, I should not be called western as am getting sensible.

It is disguise to be called western, let it be like that..

s_isale,

Please don’t assume that just because it wasn’t mentioned, people don’t know about it. We do History in our programs (which includes what happened in the world after the VII century).

In case it was missed, there is always a window, to explore in the Islamic art museum right here in Doha!

Just because Islam had a great role in its early days, don't assume that its misuse today can’t be discussed.

If you want, you pay open a forum on: the role of Islam in modern civilization.

One thing has nothing to do with the other.

well things will always go round in circles. The autocracies that are/were being supported by the western govts are a main reason for this explosion of violence.

Whether you are a moderate muslim or not you still have to live by the book.

Genesis I raised the point because some like to hide their heads when contribution of Islam to the world is spoken about.

Elics,

Too late, you have dropped your mask and you still don’t make much sense either ;)

(PS. Why the hell you disguise yourself as a westerner?)

Hey Adey, Nic, my apologize and with all respect, that was not the intention, infact I lose and lose my temper too.

Western or eastern is not the case, its humanity with same blood color. I know some regions who got oil and blood both. So either blood or oil, choice is yours ????

Some take both...

This is the world and a fact too.

Adey,

He is just a teenager pretending to be a Canadian who considers western media "yours" and not "his" ;)

Another activist west- hater that hides his own nationality and masks himself as a westerner!

"What is the definition of dead ?"

I really don't know how to repond to that!

You got me, you win, how could I have been so stupid all my life(or am I dead?), I bow to your superior debating skills, that's it I'm done! Going to pack away my laptop and never come here again, I know when I am beaten. I suggest everyone does the same and leaves QL, in fact shut down the whole website. How can we compete with an intellect as awesome as yours - the age of debate, argument and counter argument, the cut and thrust of dueling points of veiw - IT'S ALL OVER.

Goodbye all

It's been great

Peace and love

What is the definition of dead ? the one who lost their lives or who lost their families or who lost their freedom or who lost their hand , head , WHAT , tell me what ?? dont talk about facts , understand...

whatever and whoever he was , he was attacked in a reaction. It could be you or me, this is a fact.

Western media is the most stupid thing , i have ever seen in my life, I have just 2 words for your western media..

FActs........my D

Well fact no.1, and not belittling those that have lost their lives, is that millions have not been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Fact no.2 - he was not a government minister; just an ordinary MP who was not even in the ruling party at the time he was stabbed.

Fact no.3 - There was huge critical scrutiny in the main stream western media about Iraq before the invasion and ever since.

I dont understand, muslims should understand that this is the responsibility of muslims rulers to respond to American or birtish or Israel invasion to muslim countries (iraq, afghanistan, gaza, etc..., not individuals to respond and prove themselves.

The lady who tried to killed the minister ,might be trying to remind muslim countries to respond and help suffering muslims in different countries.

But media promotes killing of one person but media never tried to figure out millions killed in iraq and afghanistan to capture oil reserves in the name of mass destruction weapons.

Lets be sensible and reasonable when arguing these facts.

Please guys, lets face the facts.

Cryspy,

Didn’t you get it that I was deliberately cherry picking words from the quran that could be used to incite violence, just to demonstrate that this is actually being done.

I also told you that I won’t do anything with these words (they are useless for me) but some of your kind are actually doing a lot with them.

There is absolutely not a single threat (direct or implied) in any of what I have written.

if U re read my comment posted on Fri, 05/11/2010 - 11:23pm

"

Cryspy said xxxpat i'm not in mode to ...

xxxpat

i'm not in mode to point out ur judiciary system or courts, its only bother me, when someone forced us to adopt their way of life even if we are living in our own countries, U know what i mean.

Fri, 05/11/2010 - 11:23pm"

now, if U look it was a quick reply, it can be taken in other way, why particularly dragged into Afghanistan?

and if U go through the first page, i only commented when Nic were twisting the wrong interpreted words, else i don't think that xxxpat is totally wrong, in my opinion everyone has the right to speak out for his country.

Good Night :)

you always invoke the theme of Afghanistan in all the threads......so you deviated away from the OP first. It just seems that when we dig deeper into the subject you scuttle away when you get backed into a corner of your own making.

:)

?

By pointing out that asylum seekers can have their internet activities scrutinised?

adey

don't U think, we are far away from the topic, and xxxpat will mind it as a poster of this thread ;)

I bet your sisters don't agree.

adey

as i said, if no option, other than these two

"let say, if i 've the choice for only these two, i'll prefer Taliban, at least they were Good in keeping law and order"

xxxpat

untill now i thought, only saeedkan is threatening Qlers, but didn't know U 2.......lol

"no one is happy with either." - so who EXACTLY are these 'freedom fighters' then?

no one is happy with either.

I bet your sisters don't agree.

Just as I said.

Adey & xxxpat

Saying these 9 years, since 2001 of ISAF are worse than 7 years of Taliban.

Does that made me Taliban supporter?

and let say, if i 've the choice for only these two, i'll prefer Taliban, at least they were Good in keeping law and order.

;) They are really the saviours of Islam and Afghanistan. They're just misunderstood...

So he is out of step with the vast majority of Afghans who think that the Talibs were just about the worst thing that happened to their country in the last 22yrs.

I know you want to go on the dole and live in luxury like so many of your fellow Afghan asylum seekers but you missed the cut-off date. It's getting harder and harder these days and your internet history will rat you out ;)

Who do you think he is referring to when he shows support for the freedom fighters in his country? Look at his post just 2 hours ago on the Pakistani Taliban bombing thread.

but are they not also fighting the Taliban? From whence does this 'massive' local insurgency you speak come from. The Afghans don't want the Talibs back - and the only ones keeping them at bay at present are the international forces, because as you say the Afghans are "a feeding baby in his early stage, who doesn't have biting teeth, and legs to walk."

The International Forces will be leaving very soon...2 to 3 yrs I forsee. I wouldn't be too eager to see them go until the Afghan Army can take over.

A feeding baby in his early stage, who doesn't have biting teeth, and legs to walk.

lol

funny, U find one of my post, that i intentionally posted when U were whining for ur immigration policies of ur govt.

And so what, if i legally get enter to ur country, after all I have the right to bow the old Kingdom who's soldiers are our unpaid guests ;)

just out of interest, what do you think of the Afghan National Army?

But then my country isn't at war and needing me like yours needs you. Meanwhile you are hoping to find a way into my country, rather than go help out your own. So much for your commitment to your militant ideology. lol

until now ur Yanks & Twats are facing tough time there (if we exclude civilian damages over there), and if i feel that my physical contribution can play a significant role over there, i'll not need ur appeal.

btw, it was more better if U were the chief of ur border Agency, what U doing in luxury life of Qatar state?

This woman and her family moved to my country and no one forced her to adopt a a way of life in another country. SHE IS IN OUR COUNTRY. And even so, she has freedom to do just about anything, except kill an MP.

If all you can see is Afghanistan everywhere then go there and fight alongside your mates. Why are you being such a coward fighting from your computer screen in the comfort of Qatar. Until you can prove you actually have done ANYTHING to contribute to your cause, I'll keep seeing you as another whingeing twat who can't walk the walk.

xxxpat

i'm not in mode to point out ur judiciary system or courts, its only bother me, when someone forced us to adopt their way of life even if we are living in our own countries, U know what i mean.

she tried to kill an MP and has expressed the desire to kill more. We take attacks on our politicians as members of government service very seriously. Right or wrong, it is viewed by many to be treason. That is why her case was treated in the manner it is.

And before you start in again, let me say that I think every Brit here on qatarliving thinks are courts are way to soft on criminals like in this case you are highlighting.

anyway, have a look here

"A thug who walked free from court after viciously assaulting a terminally ill grandfather yesterday complained that he was the real victim.

Royal Mail worker Reece Kent, 19, repeatedly punched Ken Oliver before kicking him in the head in a case of mistaken identity.

Cancer sufferer Mr Oliver, 62, who has been given just three months to live, was left in a pool of blood on his doorstep with horrific injuries including a cracked left cheekbone, extensive bruising round his left eye and face, and a dislocated toe."

Read more:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1324802/Thug-kicked-terminally-ill-grandfather-head-walks-free-court.html?ITO=1490

This is a very serious crime. I presume you think we should let her off since she is a Muslim and punishing might piss off other muslims.

Maximum sentence for first time crime for a Muslim lady for the attempt of murder itself showing a double standard of society, and itself providing an excuse for these radical Muslims.

over the spam

"I don't think "dismantling religion" is ever going to happen "

Well in the richest and most pleasurable places to live(according to all such indexes) with the bizarre exception of the US eg Scandinavian countries, NZ, Japan, UK - they have done quite a good job of dismantling religions(which is slightly different from dispelling belief per say)

you beat me to it!

:P

Yeah you are right - all the news from Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq ...all that hatred and killing of muslims by.....er, oops, think I've taken a wrong turn here............other muslims.

muslim on muslim violence all over the news, too. I was just watching BBC and they are discussing the latest mosque suicide bombing in Pakistan. So if you are being unbiased you have to see that much of the "hate" and violence muslims are subjected to is by other Muslims.

But thanks for your American perspective. I actually was under the impression that the Americans don't have as big a problem with extremists as we do in the UK. Maybe your courts and politicians have just handled it better than ours.

I think one of the biggest issues that hasn't been discussed is the growing hate crimes toward only the Muslim religion and towards Muslims worldwide, they don't have to be brainwashed they merely turn on the nightly news to see things happening to human beings only because they are Muslim. Gas bombing of a mosque in Florida, wanting to burn the Quran, a community center getting debated worldwide, women getting assaulted for wearing the veil, Gazans living like dogs as no one will let aid in and they can only buy the aid from the Israelis, Olive groves the only source of income for Palestinians being destroyed, teenagers being shot daily in Palestine, women standing to save their homes being run over, I could go on for days. I noticed this summer in America a huge wave of anti muslim rhetoric just hate for the sake of hate. As long as this continues it doesn't take much to incite violence. It doesn't make sense and makes people do senseless acts they latter regret.

and I don't think "dismantling religion" is ever going to happen so your suggestion is pointless. Glad you are amused mate ;)

And thanks for the links about those scumbag freeloaders.

The world needs many people like Mohammed Arkoun's.

I think the solution relies on people like him (within the religion and therefore "authorized" to tackle the issue that I have been insisting upon).

I sincerely hope that Mohammed Arkoun's work will flourish and others will continue with his legacy.

The world, as it stands today, urgently needs that medicine!

One of the main problems has been the preachers brought in by the mosques. Since mosques are run on donations, it has in the past meant that preachers were brought from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc to save money. Ofcourse these guys had no idea of the society they were going to and also were not scholars or true theologeans.

In addition some of the bigger mosques have been "supported" by Iran, Saudi Arabia or Syra etc. Again, this has meant that there has been "bias" in the teachings.

This however is now changing - albeit slowly. Imams, born and bred in the UK are now comibng through. They understand issues and speak the same language as youngsters.

Therefore, although there is a need to worry, I do not believe it is all doom and gloom. things are moving in the right direction..

tip-toeing around religion.

It's the elephant in the room people.

Nic - the one word about book 'B' that is the most significant is 'divine' - to solve the problem one has to be in it for the long haul........all supernatural revealed gods have to be dismantled by reason........problem solved, then we move on to counter the logical calls to violence having demolished the irrational illogical ones.

Brit, boundaries for free speech are against all Europe stands for. IF implemented, it should be a temporary measure,IMHO. I also find it preposterous that we, the West ,must curb one of the cornerstones of our system because a few, mostly "newcomers" will not use it as it is meant to be used.

I think it is imperative that those who come from other cultures and systems, must understand that, unless they fully integrate, there is no place for them in their new country.

And those , like Baader Meinhoff, well, they were stamped out quite rapidly, non?

ex.ex.expat,

I believe religious education from the top down also plays has an important role.

A strong message from higher religious level is urgently needed to be spread so less people will be victims of opportunists and brain washing.

As noted here almost all sacred scripts have passages that if taken literally, incite violence.

Why in Christianity (as an example) we don’t see today the trend of using those violent passages to conquest political power towards violence, as in the religion in question?

The message to disconnect violence from sacred text is not strong enough in the religion in question when compared to others.

There is no one simple answer.

Government has to be more "selective" in who it allows in. Whilst free spech is the cornerstone of our society, there also need to be boundries regarding hatred and sedition. And , as I said earlier, we all need to work together to stamp out the curse of extremism.

and that group of Radicals who see it as their bible. They feel they are drawn to it by a "divine" calling and that ultimately they will be making the world a better place. The only way to deal with those kind of extremists in my view is better intelligence and stronger legal measures. That could also be the case here, to some extent, except religion is a protected category and makes this more difficult. Still, I believe that the courts and the government passing laws are primarily responsible for the mess we are in. Since we all vote for our politicians, I think the responsibility lies with us. We let this fester for too long.

yes brit, this is true. I remember the Baader Meinhoff...I was very young when the place where my mother worked was bombed by them.

I suppose, as you said, in free societies there are always those who abuse freedom.

What to do? Well, I think the solution has to be tailor made to aleviate the current problem.

Educate parents, integration,get rid of those who are counterproductive to solving the problem.

Also, make all understand that nothing can be perfect, but we must be united in working towards harmony.

and agree to some extent. I do think there are people who immigrate for whatever reasons but maintain values and intolerant attitudes that make it almost impossible to "live and let live".

No, not really.. It is more to do with certain people / groups preying / brainwashing the weak minded.

It is much like Patty Hearst or Timothy McVeigh or even Andreas Baader.

This will always happen in free societies. The question is how do we tackle it and defeat it..

ex.ex.expat / tinkerbell10 / gadarene

The only reason I drove my arguments in that direction was to address a obvious root cause for the problem in debate.

It is not my intention to bash any religion or their respectful followers. However it’s quite difficult not to mention it as the source of this religion is the same source of the problem in debate.

Let’s remove the religion from the discussion and I will demonstrate here why it’s not possible to continue closing our eyes to this root problem, in the name of PC.

To better illustrate my rational, let's consider for a moment that there is a particular Book "B" recognized by a group of people as the "divine policy for life". Within this policy, there are some passages that incite violence within a certain context and time.

Now let’s come back to the problem addressed in the OP which talks about some youngsters that are driven towards violence in the name of a cause perceived by them as vital;

Being this debate around the OP topic, it’s a natural rational process, to apply brainstorming to the issue and try to understand all the way with no limits, what drives these youngsters towards their violent acts. For that let’s align the events in a chronological order:

Now, remember this is an exercise with a Book “B” and should not be confused with any actual sacred script of any religion:

- There is a particular Book "B" recognized by a group of people as the "divine policy for life". Within this policy, there are some passages that incite violence within a certain context and time.

- Extremists are inspired in the text of that Book "B", which they consider divine and contains text that can be easily manipulated to recruit and brain wash followers and turn them against the non followers of Book “B”’s policy.

- youngsters feel lost in a limbo, between two distinct ways of life (their parents' original countries and the one they find themselves in);

- extremists find an opportunity in the heart of the western world, to spread with fear and terror their political agenda;

- youngsters are indoctrinated into an ideology that incites combat against those who don’t follow the concerned ideology;

- youngster commit violent acts in the name of that ideology;

Now that I presented my rational, I ask how can we tackle the problem, by closing our eyes to a root cause (the source of inspiration)?

Book “B”, like all the other scared scripts were written in different times and different contexts. Just like Book “B”, all the other similar Books contain text that can inspire good morals and values but also text that could inspire violence. The risk of human beings using these words towards their political agendas, is equal in all scared books.

I do acknowledge the sensitivity of the issue and the difficulty to carry on with the debate in a free and open mode, without touching sensitivities.

My intention here and I would believe the whole world’s, is not to suppress the religion in question, but to separate the religion from its extremist wing. To separate the conventional follower from the ones who uses it for political and terror agendas.

I believe this can only be done by those who practice the religion in question and that is why, I wrote above that the solution must come from within the concerned religion.

Agree bit. But do you not think that those with certain taught cultural/basic religious values are more susceptible to this kind of brainwashing and following extreme violence?

In this case, it has nothing to do with cultural values - taught or otherwise.

It is clearly a case of someone not having a clear direction in life (applicable to anyone , whether 10th generation or 1st generation).

Choudhry, a brilliant student became radicalised after she downloaded sermons by Anwar al-Awlaki, the Yemen-based preacher.

The judge alluded to this when he said - "You are only 21, an intelligent young lady and one who has absorbed immoral ideas and wrong patterns of thinking and attitudes. I also hope you will come to understand the distorted nature of your thinking, the evil you have done and hoped to do"

The MP who was stabbed , said - “My real worry is that a very bright young woman with everything to live for would reach the conclusion that she should throw it all away by attempting to kill the local MP. It is puzzling and alarming that she seems to have reached the conclusion by spending time on some website.”

This is the danger that needs to be addressed. The government and we in society have to heed the danger signs and take concrete steps to ensure that those who would brainwash or spread hatred are deprived of the means to do so and excluded from our society / shores.

exex, I did not mean to say that some come to the West with the intent to "undo" ...but it may very well be so.

I simply think that it is very difficult, if not impossible for people with very different cultural values to live together...especially if one party is adamant on changing things that are accepted, wanted and common practice in the new country.

brit, what I meant to say is that if people come from regimes that execute stringent control it is, IMHO, almost impossible for them to function in an environment that lets them decide for themselves to a large extent.

Those whose ancestors were raised under those controlling regimes, may or may not teach their children values that were predominant under those regimes, and are not applicable in their new country.

And, last but not least, taught cultural values often, as we see, conflict with those values in the "new" countries.

Now, I really dislike the Daily Mail on many levels, and I would ignore the benifits angle as perhaps biased, as it does not say how long they have been on benifits or if their wives work,....but the straight reporting side of the article is illuminating.:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1326844/DIY-jihadists-Roshonara-Choudhry-supporters-living-benefits.html

been linked to the website 'revolutionmuslim.com', hosted in the US but a front for the radical UK based muslim that keeps getting banned - they get round the ban by keep changing their group's name.

"A radical Islamic website that inspired Roshonara Choudhry to stab her MP has called on muslims to take up the 'knife of jihad' against other members of parliament who voted for the Iraq War.

The website has published a full list of the MPs who voted for the war and advises: 'In their personal website, you can usually find the time and location of their "surgeries", where you can encounter them in person.'

Underneath a list of Stephen Timms' constituency surgery times, the website has posted a link to a supermarket web page showing a three-piece knife set for sale.

And in a tribute to Miss Choudhry, who was jailed for life this week, the American-run website states: 'We ask Allah for her action to inspire Muslims to raise the knife of Jihad against those who voted for the countless rapes, murders, pillages, and torture of Muslim civilians as a direct consequence of their vote.'...................

............Revolutionmuslim.com has posted an internet link to download the book, stating that it was read by Choudhry 'four days before her operation.'

Titles of the chapter of the book include 'The virtues of killing a non-believer for the sake of Allah,' while others are used to justify suicide bombings."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1326842/Extremist-website-inspired-Stephen-Timms-stabbing-urges-raise-knife-jihad.html#ixzz14OdGSYZx

little to add more "Chop their hands or tongue off, then they cant stab anyone or manipulate words."

O my lost love ;)

Chop their hands off, then they cant stab anyone or make bombs

xxxpat

i don't want any thread to be deleted or locked, simply b/c i just hate it, when this happens to my threads, and many times i've experienced with.

i was only correcting manipulated words of Nic.

over backwards they are ex.ex.expat and soon they will snap.

Those people would be immigrating to and respect that they are given the right to practice their religion as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights or security of the people of the country.

I don't necessarily agree that it has to be the way you describe but I do suspect SOME immigrated with the idea of undoing us (like Omar Bakri Muhammed). At the same time, our laws should not be bending over backwards for those who commit treason and this is both a political and legal problem.

to contribute to the one we are having about what can be done about the alienation of some muslims in our society being encouraged by the small but lethal group of extremists we have in the UK.

Any thoughts?

Sorry, but could you explain what you mean by "How can Western governments expect people that come from totalitarian and worse regimes not to abuse the completely different system in Western countries?"

It's sad that we live in a world today that has such low levels of tolerance for other religious beliefs (:...

ANYONE can point out passages from EITHER Holy Book be it the Bible OR the Quran & say "see your religion incites violence",that in my opinion is THE most juvenile way of dealing with the situation...

NO religion professes hatred & killing of innocent people,of that i'm 100% sure...now how people choose to interpret them is a whole different story...people of ANY religion, be it Al Qaeda or the Bosnians carrying out ethnic cleansing in the name of religion are nothing but lying,cheating,cowardly people or people who have been brainwashed into believing they're doing the right thing,there is NO justification in TODAY'S world that we live in, in taking innocent human lives,IRRESPECTIVE of religion,that's all there is to it...

Al Qaeda or other fundamentalists killing in the name of religion is just as wrong as American & other Christian soldiers killing innocent Iraqis & Afghans & calling them "causalities of war" or "collateral damage' or whatever other terms they've come up for it...

Taking an innocent life is wrong,doesn't matter what religion the person belongs to,now why is something as simple as that so difficult to understand???...

exex and tinker. that's why I have said many times the laws must be adapted to the circumstances that have changed. How can Western governments expect people that come from totalitarian and worse regimes not to abuse the completely different system in Western countries? They are, due to where they come from,used to circumvent, find loopholes or simply ignore what is expected from them...it may be common sense to us, but not to them.

Strange to see christians calling Quran violent, there isnt any book in the world that incites as much violence as bible. Thats a book that asks its beleivers to smash the heads of babies, to kill even the animals of opposers.

Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

From the original post:

British shouting "British go to hell"...and they call themselves British? They are about as much British as Osama Bin Laden.

on the head Nomerci when you mentioned the PC (politically correct) group.

They have to be firmly put in their place. There has been enough damage caused by them and not only in the political/religious fields.

Society has gone mad and the government have been supporting that group by giving in all the time, leading them to "highlight" more and more ludicrous PC issues.

It's time that the stupidity stopped.

Our current laws and freedoms do work against us in many cases :(

Chop their hands off, then they cant stab anyone or make bombs

Tinker, I don't think it is as important to get to the "youngsters" as silencing those that actually brainwash them.THEY are the people that need to be gotten rid of. Now, the problem is, in the West there is freedom of speech, and in some countries they are so overly PC that they let those people get away with inciting hatred. On the other hand, if strong measures would be taken against those people, they would either go underground, and be protected by "their own", or they would go to "cause friendly" countries where they could say ll they want, in the name of Islam, of course.

so, what to do?

I agree.

This is where the Muslim community has to stand up and identify these extremists. In addition , the security services need to be more vigilant and aggressive - which i am sure they are being since 7/7..

are Extremist they are willing to go to extreme measures in terrorist acts against their own society. So they are a tremendous threat to us. That's my point brit.

I had to be away from the thread while at work today but really didn't want this to get into an Islam bashing thread. I really want to know how we can help Muslims integrate better into our society so they do feel like they have a shared stake in being British, rather than cursing us to hell.

I think the Muslim community needs to do more, but I also think we need to forge stronger relationships with the moderate Muslim community and help empower them to do their work. I am just flummoxed about how to do that. How do we get rid of the Abu Izzadenes and Abu Hamzas, and encourage more Yousef Islams.

"That said, there is a small but fervent segment of the Muslim population that feels divinely inspired to spread Islam and build an Islamic nation.."

I would agree and disagree with you here. Yes, there is a tiny minority. They are very vocal and the press (usually the right wing) plays on this. To me, they are no different than the extremists in Judaism or Christianity.

They don't have the support of the majority of Muslims and are shunned / ignored by them.

I agree that the government in the past has been too PC and accomodating. This has to be corrected and only the government can do this.

religious dissection because the mods will delete the whole thread and we are having a good discussion. Thanks mates.

as encouraged that this is a "phase" and everything will be alright in the long run, especially not if we keep doing things the way we are. We have given up too much and gone to soft.

You keep using the IRA as an example, but as an Anglican I can tell you that our differences with Catholic ideology are not nearly as great as our differences with Islamic ideology. And ultimately, even the Irish never expected to become a new Vatican (nor were they ever striving for it).

That said, there is a small but fervent segment of the Muslim population that feels divinely inspired to spread Islam and build an Islamic nation (one based on Muslim values) and those people feel it is religiously their duty to work against the status quo of our democracy and secular society.

I want to know how you propose getting through to those people with our current political and legal system that bends over backwards to let them work against us.

Engagement is the answer. The government did it with the IRA and look what happened.

However, the main push has to come from the Muslim community itself. Whether , you believe this or not, It is actually happening.

In addition, the government and the security services need to take a harder line with those who threaten the security of our country. There must be no compromise on this.

Chop their hands off, then they cant stab anyone or make bombs

I think some hard changes need to take place and I believe we are to concerned with being PC than our own survival.

I do believe that surely this ideology is not reflective of the mainstream. So how can we engage together with the mainstream to put a stop to it? Education is good but what specifically can we do in education? I do believe that good Muslims can and should take the lead in this regard and am willing to help in anyway I can. But I am stymied about how I can help when on a daily basis I see my country coming apart. :(

The discussion is about what to do about the small, lethal segment of our British society that hates us, wishes to harm us and yet takes our handouts. Do you have any input about how to dismantle this extremism?

considered illegal. War may be amoral, but I don't think legality is the issue.

Having said that, are you implying that because people get killed in wars that we should excuse all killing?

I'm not really following you...

Genesis,

Mohammed Arkoun (although recently deceased) is a hope that we might be entering into a new age for Islam, where the religion can finally find its bridge to peacefully coexist with the modern world. I hope more will follow his line of thoughts.

As for Ayaan Hirsi Ali (i did not read her book), she claims to be an ex-muslim. And you know that ex-something are the harshest critics.

I have some friends in France (born from muslim families) who claim the same status (ex-muslim) and when compared with their views on the topic, I can be considerate a very moderate non-follower.

After reading her book, I guarantee you she knows nothing of Islam nor did she ever practiced it

She didn’t even bother researching for her book, as it was infested with what's usually written in sites like Jihad watch or in Anti Islam blogs & forums

Both herself and Wafa Sulltan , had personal tragedies and decided to vent it out on Islam.

None of them were actually scholars or intellects before that. Of course they’ll be welcomed in the west, Trashy talk sells :)

Just one clarification

Hirsi Ali is an Atheist who knows nothing of islam. She have never in fact practiced Islam or studied it

Have you actually read her book Infidel? Her Criticism were all revolving around practices in her own culture which are tribal traditions not Islam

The Arab world has many Liberal intellects that have sought reforms like Mohammed Arkoun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Arkoun

Sadly, The Mullahs have made sure that the general public outcast such intellects

genesis ,

she was born and raised in a family who claims to be Muslim.

As you know better than me, islam has different school of thoughts and each and all claim that it’s the One – these different interpretations and the clashes in between them are yet another (but distinct from this debate) problem of religions.

genesis and britexpat,

if the majority were like you, there would be no need to for this debate.

britexpat,

The day when the rest of the world perceives that the muslim world is openly fighting the misinterpretations of the quran, it will be the beginning of a peaceful communion world shared by muslims and non-muslims.

Not the Representative of Islam today that started The Age of Enlightenment In Europe.

Back then, Muslims were able to think and wisely interpret the script

Do you know what salafis & Wahabis now say about renown Muslim thinkers like Avicenna or Averroes? They are called infidels & Atheists (in fact there is a fatwa that Forbids glorifying them)

While both Christianity & Judaism has its share of ultra conservatives, very few are loud & outspoken about their Agenda For the suppression and exclusion of others

I don't think it is mission impossible. I would agree that initially the Muslims buried their heads in the sand and weer in denial. However, in the past couple of years , mosques and madrasas have been working actively to address the issue and end this scourge.

There is still a long way to go, but I believe that it will be achieved. You will always get the extremists, but this is a very tiny minority of the whole. They will not be totally obliterated, but the voices of the majority will prevail.

Having said this, the Islamophobes and Xenophobes will have you believe that all is lost. This is definitely not the case..

things are never as black and white as painted by some of the media. Dialogue, discussion and understanding always triumph.

Cryspy,

Trust me, if I could, I would be pleased to do that!

Just because I am trying to debate one root cause, do you think that I am blind towards others?

Being a non-muslim, allows me to see both sides, the bad and the good of those exactly two sides.

I am not discussing that, which is also valid. I am only discussing here one root cause - a major one - that remains largely a huge taboo.

The inability to engage people here in this precise debate is an illustration of how the world deals with this major root cause.

The only counter arguments, we get here is diverting the issue towards other issues. Some people in this debate are unable to call the thing by its name.

not surprised for all the reasons we mentioned above (the mission impossible thing).

s_isale,

We are all ignorants, but at the same time equipped with some intelligence that allows us to interpret the world, express opinions and allows others to do the same by not shut them out when it’s not convenient for our ideology.

This is a debate, can you participate and allow opponents to do so? Or are you too ill-equipped for the task?

The problem is not what I pick, I promise you I won’t do anything with it. The problem is what and from where, the extremists pick it.

do U have the guts to open ur mouth, go to whitehouse and 10 downing street, and ask them to stop all these nonsense with the name of terror and WMD???

Crspy,

It’s not offensive to me. You have the right to question and even to say what you think. I will probably support you on this one ;)

About the freedom that I and 75% of world have to call things by its name, is what is missing in the Muslim world, to be able to acknowledge the problem and tackle it accordingly.

I know it’s not possible because if you dare to do it you would be seen as a non-muslim, just like Ayaan Hirsi Ali did.

But you don’t have to go down that avenue. With a bit of good will, intelligence and with a euphemistic approach, this can be addressed without putting in cause any believes. All you need is to tackle the problem with the appropriate dose of tact (which, as I am a non-muslim, I dont feel the need to do).

Werent the actions of the govts which provided a fertile ground for this? Instead of acknowledging the mistakes of the govt which resulted in this and blaming the muslims for the same is crazy. Period...

Nic - for you ignorance is bliss.

Europe would would still be in the dark ages if not for islam.

Pick and choose what you want. Its upto you.

ah

U r forcing me to come back

"why it was offensive when once i asked "Is Pop helping Pedophiles?"

and now U r repeating ur buls hit by calling words of Holy Book as evil words.

are U nut???

UkEngQatar,

lol... you know what I meant.

Pilgram,

precisely, the extremists flourish because they are certainly more visible and louder than the peaceful groups.

NIC you mean Satanic verses?..lol

UkEngQatar,

obviously one has to be evil to use evil words... we both agree that those folks are evil, apparently you are also not too comfortable to admit here that there are evil words out there (no need to label them) that these folks use to convince others in following their agendas.

Cryspy,

You said: "What i understand from You, that Muslim must edit Quran, and remove all these verses???

If so, just dream on, no one can stop U. This is not the problem of Quran."

sure its not possible, that is why i wrote somewhere above: sadly, its today a mission impossible.

What you Muslims need to do is to acknowledge the existence of these words, educate your followers of the risk of their misuse! Shout loud and clear that all violence is against islam, and anyone who uses the words of the quran to practice violence in the name of whoever including Allah, is a criminal rejected by Allah.

Shout these as loud as you do when somebody draws cartoons, and maybe even the ignorant ones will follow accordingly.

Whatever the solution, as you will agree with me, it must come from within islam, a message from the muslims to the muslims!

Correct my if I'm wrong, but I think the reason they also turn to these groups is because there are no alternatives. Are there other peace loving groups? Are there Imams posting YouTube videos promoting peace?

Nic they are inspired by their own wicked and evil thinking using their belief as a pity excuse.

I can not see or will not ever accept any justification what so ever from any belief in this world which incites hatred and may result in violence.

UkEngQatar,

and these radical elements who are brain washing others, are inspired in which words?

(have a look: http://www.letusreason.org/islam12.htm)

why on earth can't we consider this major root cause and work together to eliminate it!?

Nic

What i understand from You, that Muslim must edit Quran, and remove all these verses???

If so, just dream on, no one can stop U. This is not the problem of Quran.

Btw, can we blame all the west in general for innovation of all modern weapons, which in reality killing thousands of Humans, just b/c a Big dog in west started a war, and their successor are good in continuing them?

Will You accuse them for making all these destructive weapons?

End of my discussion on this thread, i've seen U biased in ur opinion towards Quran, but i'm sure U never worry to read once few reports of Wiki leaks, that might open ur eyes.

The consistent turn away from acknowledging the fact that the quran contains incentives of violence, just like the qlers above are doing, is exactly the reason why the main source of terrorism is not being tackled.

Sure the quran contains peaceful and lovely words, but that is not a problem with good muslims and non-muslims in general.

The problem is that extremists cherry pick the existent words in the quran of hate and violence (http://www.letusreason.org/islam12.htm) and go to places where poverty and ignorance flourish to recruit agents to implement their extremism.

Until the day when the muslim world does acknowledge this, we will always have terrorists inspired in the holy words of the quran.

All the rest can be considered and we can discuss that in other threads but I am only focusing on one issue which is clear a major taboo for muslims, thus their inability to stay on topic!

I think we are getting embroided in a conversation which is a by-track from the main issue being discussed here.

The Question is why are the youth of Britain who may be frustrated due to some policies of the government and completed brain washed by these radical elements who are living in our society say British Go to Hell.

I believe that one should be honest and faithful to the country one lives in just like one needs to be faithful to his/her beliefs. As far as Islam goes, If you think you cannot practice your religion in a country then follow the Prophets example and immigrate to a place where you can practice freely- Saudia Arabia comes to mind. But turning on your fellow citizen due to ones own interpretaion on your Belief..Really beggers belief.

Not only are these minority number of radicals making it harder for the majority of peace loving muslims in Britain but they are also tarnishing the image of this peace religion worldwide.

So where as one might say that it is too late. But it is never too late to start. The Home Secetary yesterday acknowledged that Al Qaeda was active in the UK. So where as Britain is fighting millitants abroad I believe they we may have a bigger fight at home if we don't give these radicals the taste of thier own medicine.

Put them on a boat and send on a beach holiday like to Ibiza. Now why am I saying. Well obviously it will soften them up.

I have been through the education system in the UK. the Universities have become a recruiting and preying ground for these radicalist. Who target the the most vulnurable youngsters. When they should be enjoying the best time of their life, their minds are being filled with hatred and radical ideas.

UK should also stop giving asylum to Islamist radicalist. Abu Hmaza just a name that came to mind and the list goes on.

Also the communities and the Mosque need to sort these radicalist.

I admired ur way of approaching for manipulated words, however U can have a better look here for what U had posted.

Few of them are here,

"He whom Allah leadeth, he indeed is led aright, while he whom Allah sendeth astray - they indeed are losers. (178) Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle - nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful. (179) Allah's are the fairest names. Invoke Him by them. And leave the company of those who blaspheme His names. They will be requited what they do. (7-180)" why this offensive to U?

Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. (84) And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter. (85) How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and (after) they bore witness that the messenger is true and after clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) had come unto them. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. (3-86)" and why this???

"(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ. (55) As for those who disbelieve I shall chastise them with a heavy chastisement in the world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers. (3-56)"

"Lo! those who purchase a small gain at the cost of Allah's covenant and their oaths, they have no portion in the Hereafter. Allah will neither speak to them nor look upon them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He make them grow. Theirs will be a painful doom. (77)"

"Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph. (9-111)"

mate, if need further clarification do let me know.

religions is not judge by an individual act..no religions gave rooms fr bad activities,terrorism etc.its is the some selfish people who play polictics.plz dont point to any single religions,any holy books...

I have very good answers for all your reference verses and I assure you the inpiration is not from Quran for these attempts. I again request, dont point out QURAN, you will get nothing. What I request you is to look into this as this is the inspiration"The Israeli military openly used white phosphorus shells in the Gaza War, which were fired from 155mm artillery guns"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus

(you will find hundred more links)

and you know that, these bombs were fired on Gaza in response to some rocket attacks which you even make in school labs. (funny)

Punishments are same as described in any religious book if someone may go to hell.

Honestly, you answer your own question, ofcourse you dont know the background of these verses and I cant explain you right now.

you are making point, the inspiration. RIGHT ?

Million killed Iraq, got notihng and thats the inspiration

Afhghanistan, total destruction, found nothing, INSPIRATION.

GAZA ..the inspiration

Comon you are smart, dont just go for blame game. I still assure you, there is peace in Quran. I can assure you about Quran, but i cant assure you some twisted minds.

So please, think neutral if you really want to make a difference. Things are so simple and clear.

ELICS ,

You ether don’t know the quran or you may choose to ignore the impact of its passages that incite violence.

Here are some for your easy reference:

“We have created, for hell, many genii (races) of men...and they are like brute beasts” (7.179)

“Verily, those who disbelieve our signs, we will surely cast them to be broiled in the hell-fire, so often as their skins shall be well burnt, We will give them new skins in exchange, so that they may taste the sharper torment” (4.56)

“Whosoever followeth any religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him in this life, and in the next life he shall be of those who perish” (3.85)

“I will cast a dread into the hearts of the unbelievers” (8.12)

“Therefore cut off their heads, and strike off all the ends of the fingers. This shall they suffer because they have opposed Allah and His Prophet, and whosoever shall oppose Allah and His Prophet, verily Allah will be severe in punishing them” (8.13)

“moreover, as for the non-believers, I will punish them with grievous punishments in this world, and in the world is to come” (3.56)

“they shall suffer a grievous punishment” (3.77).

“They (believers) shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain” (9:111).”

see many more here: http://www.letusreason.org/islam12.htm

Now you may argue that the above quranic passages were written in a certain context and no longer should they be interpreted literally... maybe you are right... however... the main source of terror today, seeks its inspiration in these precise words!

My point is: why isn’t the world acknowledging this source, objectively and doing something effective to stop the bloody trend?!

The Muslims who don't believe in this really need to form a united front of some sort and offer kids like Choudry a peaceful alternative to the groups that promote jihad. She was just looking for a place to belong and sadly I don't think the peace loving Muslims are offering her a place.

Really, some unity has to be found in the Muslim world, because right now, the only ones united are the crazy ones.

NIC

Now

"The Pot is calling the Kettle black"

you'll not get my point as you already made your point by pointing QURAN as wrong, which is not the case.

When muslim kills, its Quran and when non muslims kills , its what ?

Why do you give chances to these political movements to recruit followers. Around 42 countries (NATO) invaded IRAQ and afghanistan, before it was russians to Afghanistan. I dont want to bring history into this discussion, its just recently israel raid on Flotilla. Look things are connected, you cant just deny these facts.

Please dont make your points, Quran is same from last thousands of years, understanding might be different.

I wish to talk about it more but I have to leave. take care

ELICS,

didn't get your point!

O_o

PS. Islamism is an ideology who feeds itself in the hate messages contained in the quran and in poverty and ignorance. It’s a political movement that uses any excuse such those you mentioned (Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Gaza, etc...) to recruit followers.

Muslims should understand that this is not the way to respond American and Britain invasion in IRAQ and afghanistan. All Muslims should wait for their turn, may be listed in Millions who died in Iraq, Afghanistan, bosnia, kashmir, Gaza.

I understand, there are some communities who wants to take revenge for innocent killing in Muslim world. But one should try to make them (non-muslim) community understand, the facts behind these attempts. Am sure, non-muslims are well developed and have better understanding.

So please..... rather naming Islamists, zionists, terrorists.... think a little, is this WAR, a religion , a economy or just ...

britexpat,

Acknowledging the problem objectively and its root causes without fear, is what is missing in both sides: the non-muslim world and the muslim world.

The first one is afraid the second one is on denial.

Both sides have to change their positions.

The non-muslim world need to act fearless as Douglas Murray did in the above linked debate: "Neither is it an accident, or a small detail that the largest Sunni state, Saudi Arabia, the most important in the world, is a closed prison of a society."

And the muslim world need to free themselves from the stagnation they trapped themselves and acknowledge that the quran contains a lot of text that inspire hate, violence and murder and needs to be tackled in public accordingly (sadly, its today a mission impossible)without the usual hypocrisy so characteristic and needed to be able not to see what is so crystal clear for 75% of the world population and many ex-muslims, like Ayaan Hirsi Ali ("she believes the reason the motion for the debate is not ‘Is Christianity a religion of peace?’ or ‘Is Judaism a religion of peace?’ is because those would be academic questions. Unfortunately, placing Islam under the microscope is not an academic exercise: it is a pressing and timely issue, precisely because religion continues to inspire Muslims around the world to commit violent deeds.").

I hope you are right, that this Islamism phase will dissipate soon, before the extreme right wings will slowly take over and will start cleaning the mess their own way!

Actually i did see it this week on TV :O)

I agree that the perceptions of Muslims have changed since 9/11 and more so in the UK since 7/7.

This is natural after the attrocities. Just as the bible was wrongly used to corrupt the minds of people many years ago, now the same is being done with the Quran.

This will always occur to manipulate people. Remember , the IRA started off as a religious based movement.

I really do believe - and hope that I am right - that this is a phase our society is going through and will come out of it soon.

The answer is not to exclude, but to work towards inclusion.

I realise that we have differing views on this subject, so , we'll probably keep discussing the subject. :O)

britexpat,

Sure ideologies come and go as the examples you pointed out.

However there is a huge problem in the particular one we are all referring to using different words. The main problem is its source of inspiration: the Quran and the inability to tackle it.

When you have time, listen to this debate (http://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/islam-is-a-religion-of-peace) and understand why, we non-muslims, wish that religion would be kept private (only)! No other religion and no other so called “sacred” scripts is inspiring so much radical movements, than the one you are practicing! I avoid verbalizing it to avoid hostile reactions.

But feel free and listen to how the issue is approached in the free world even by ex-Muslims:

http://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/islam-is-a-religion-of-peace

@ ex.ex.expat,from my experience in the UK,here's my take on this: the damage to the UK was done decades ago when uneducated,illiterate people lacking the ability to put a sentence together in english let alone actually have a conversation & who are the easiest to recruit into Al-Qaeda & similar organizations were allowed to board flights to Heathrow,flush their passports down the bog as soon as they arrived & claim political asylum...& the Government readily gave it to them seeing them as a potential vote bank instead of a potential threat...

What that has resulted in today is 2nd generation supposedly British citizens but seeing very contrasting lifestyles @ home & out in public & being torn between 2 cultures because most of their parents never really integrated did they?...they moved to Brick Lane or Bradfordistan, i mean Bradford & recreated their villages back home with the same conservative culture & ideaology but they are UK citizens & that's the loophole that Al-Qaeda & similar organizations have exploited & i'm sorry to say will continue to exploit...

Be it the July 7 bombers or this Choudhry woman,there is a very high likelihood that their parents never really integrated into British society & while this is not true for all South Asian immigrants to the UK,it is again,highly likely to be true for the parents of these radicalized 2nd generation citizens,not being able to fit in completely into either culture & being offered a 3rd option of becoming a jihadi where they are(obviously) welcomed with open arms...

And the UK Govt. seemingly still hasn't learnt it's lesson,with taxpayers hard earned money going towards housing Iraqi & Afghan refugees,what's the bet sometime in the near future,a personal attack or worse so, a bombing will be traced back to one of these refugees?...So to me,the damage has already been done but the UK Govt. still doesn't seem to be focusing on damage control measures,choosing instead to be seen as doing the politically correct thing...well good luck with that is all i can say...

Ideologies come and go. Society accepts and adapts. ideologies change.

This is a case of young Muslim extremists who are brainwashed into carrying out acts of violence - which have no room in our society.

This is nothing new .. Look at history.. Baader Meinhoff, ETA, IRA etc etc.. By the way, the IRA was the scourge for decades and is now on the whole peaceful. The same will occur here.

What is needed is a concerted effort by government and society to address this issue and defeat the morons..

britexpat,

They do evolve, but because of their human rights conscience, they have welcome certain ideologies that are now attacking those who welcome them and are slowly killing that evolution in the name of their agendas.

Britain and other European countries should have adopted the same religion freedom policy as Saudi Arabia has.

You being a Muslim and son of immigrants, would most likely not be able to feel the consequences of the fast spread and unwanted ideology like the native brits do (as this ideology is intrinsically connected and often confused with your religion).

Nations evolve and identities evolve..

What UkEngQatar has said is correct. The communities and the government need to work together to get rid of these scum..

UkEngQatar,

Britain is in the verge of loosing its identity.

I was recently in Birmingham and Hull... and oh boy... what is happening with the secular and free minded Britain?! Something very nasty is slowly emerging and taking over your country!

There is an ideology of power, hate and violence that inspires a lot of people:

http://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/islam-is-a-religion-of-peace

This is where i think education plays a big part to prevent such people being involved in such crazy stuff. Some people have translated the "Heaven awaits you" thing incorrectly im afraid.

lets just consider the other side for a moment... what about the millions of people/civilians/politicians killed by occupations around the world, whether it be by British or the Americans?

Stupid bint. She nearly killed someone and ruined her own life. Sadly, this is an issue that needs to be addressed by both the community and the government. Preachers of such hate need to be controlled and prosecuted.

Face palm

what's really sick is killing in the name of God and what sort of paradise awaits those who do that?

s_isale what sort of question is that? Troops in Iraq or anywhere else for that matter are just soldiers following orders, they didnt go there on their own. Having said that, killing of any human under any situation is illegal period.

Funny how these idiots think killing for God will reward them in paradise. The only paradise they will be seeing is hell themselves.

Is it illegal to kill those US troops in Iraq?

*shudders* what a group of ungrateful sick individuals. Talk about bite the hand that feeds you. They certainly don't deserve to be citizens of Britain even if they and their ancestors were born there. In fact I don't think they deserve to be in any country. How about sending them all to an Island in the middle of nowhere? seriously they are such a menace! Good to hear at least one of em, Roshonara Choudhry, is off the streets!Why weren't those obscenity chanting supporters of her's jailed too? seems they very much supported her cause. guess all that can be done at this point is when they are exposed then prosecute them heavily with the maximum sentence..make an example of em!