God did create the universe

i like what you said too much

"The Law respects your right to hold certain beliefs; but that respect doesn't extend to those beliefs' contents."

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alanaam(6)

Of them are some who listen unto thee, but We have placed upon their hearts veils, lest they should understand, and in their ears a deafness. If they saw every token they would not believe therein; to the point that, when they come unto thee to argue with thee, the disbelievers say: This is naught else than fables of the men of old. (25) And they forbid (men) from it and avoid it, and they ruin none save themselves, though they perceive not. (26) If thou couldst see when they are set before the Fire and say: Oh, would that we might return! Then would we not deny the revelations of our Lord but we would be of the believers! (27)

i notice that the other two threads about the same subject has been locked by the mods..

i wonder why?

Religious folks should never get into a debate about proofs and facts... Religion is based on faith and belief and there are no facts or proofs to back it up so stick to your belief and let others be.

is called 'Bucailleism' and is discredited by all real scientists.

See below for more details:

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Bucailleism

Everyone is free to make their own minds up but I could not let One_shot's claim of devine scientific revelation go unchallenged.

And most of what you believe is similarly not science. What makes you right and him wrong?

:D

i do did that before, and he has a great studies, but some of them are based on what "he believes" not science .

one more thing

before you start reading , put in your consideration that this is a book which has been revealed ((1400 years)) when a lot of people where still thinking that Earth is flat.

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then i want you read it again but as 20 century's human mind.

thanks

one_shot: your post yesterday was that Hawkins had no proof. I asked for your and you said that you had read somewhere in a book that Hawkins was wrong and that was all you needed. Now you blather on and one about clouds and mountains and oceans, picking and choosing bits that back up what you have already decided to believe. You state that Hawkins (who you clearly have not read) is just writing his opinions. I suggest that you follow your own advice and read his book rather than posting more blather.

the message, the research, the belief

we discuss and judge the third part all the time...

every one is entitled for ones own belief...(its a discussion analogous to "whos parents are better parents"

in our cases its the default inherited belief of our parents, the way we are raised, its not based on our personal research.

epi

i wish that you spend some time with what i post in this thread.

it will not take too much time

yesterday you asked me for my proof and you didn't ask Hawkings.

and btw , i didn't post anything yet because if i want it will need websites not topics to talk about what has been discovered.

i respect too much the theories of Einstein and himself

said once:

“Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.”

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and i don't want us to be lame or blind

one_shot: and what you believe is nothing more than conjecture based on superstitions. How is your belief any better or worse than anyone else's?

Double post,sorry

what hawkings said is nothing more that his personal opinion based on theories.

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With all respect to him and to many scientists like Darwin or Einstein, theory is a theory and not yet proved.

fact is a fact and no one can change this

really khattak, i tried many times but i wasn't able to post it in religious teachings , i did my effort

The almighty and the ultimate creator of all things on earth.

“For by him all things were created that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through him and for him” - (Colossians 1:16).

Enough said...

once I've read about finger print pattern usage which used in modern Police first time by the Scotland Yard.

which the finger also describe in Quran..

share me Please

LOLzzzzz One_Shot.... I was expecting someone to suggest you post it in the Religious Forum. :D

Thanks for sharing by the way :-)

we will never know ;) :P

both on second and seventh points

-First i tried to make it in Religious but i couldn't

-second you didn't mention this comment in the opposite threads.

-third this is really my opinion in this and a lot of people copy paste even you.

-fourth it is not a propaganda , it depends on facts and studies by Muslims and non-Muslims scientists

-sixth it shows that you listen to your words in your head otherwise you at least read it to discover it

-seventh you didn't notice that i skipped fifth , and it proves that you only hear the sound of your own mind

thanks

And you might try expressing your own arguments rather than just copy-pasting some religious propaganda. ;)

How could Muhammad (peace be upon him) have possibly known all this 1,400 years ago when scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscopes which did not exist at that time? Hamm and Leeuwenhoek were the first scientists to observe human sperm cells using an improved microscope in 1677 A.D. (more than 1,000 years after Muhammad, peace be upon him]. They mistakenly thought that the sperm cell contained a miniature preformed human being that grew when it was deposited in the female genital tract

[The Developing Human, p.9]

Professor Keith Moore is one of the world's prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled the "Developing Human", which has been translated into eight languages. This book is considered a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by on person. Dr. Keith Moore is a Professor of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. In 1984, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has directed many international associations, such as the Canadian and American Association of Anatomists and the Council of the Union of Biological Sciences.

In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Moore said; "It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been the messenger of God, or Allah [The reference for this statement is on 'This is the Truth' (video tape). For a copy of this video tape please contact us].

Consequently, Professor Moore was asked the following question, "Does this mean that you believe that the Quran is the Word of God?" He replied; "I find no difficulty in accepting this."

During one conference, Professor Moore stated, "... because the stagein of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Quran and the Sunnah (sayings of Muhammad, peace be upon him). The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Quran and Hadith (reliably transmitted sayings and reports of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him) in the last four years have revealed a system of classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the 7th century A.D. Although Eric Statle, the founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos developed in stages from his studies of hen's eggs in the fourth century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known about the stagein and classification of human embryos until the twentieth century. For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryo in the Quran cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the 7th century A.D. The only reasonable conclusion is that these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training." [This is the Truth -video tape]

In the Holy Quran, God speaks about the stages of man's embryonic development, 1,400 years before modern day scientists 'discovered' important information on creation of man and his development:

We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed-like substance)...

[Noble Quran 23:12-14]

Literally the Arabic word alaqah has 3 meanings:

leech

suspended thing

blood clot

1. "In comparing a leech to the embryo at the alaqah stage, we find similarity between the two."

[The Developing Human p.8]

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"Also, the embryo as this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech which feeds on the blood of others."

[Human Development as Described in Quran and Sunnah p.36]

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2. The second meaning of the word alaqah is 'suspended thing'. The suspension of the embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother very appropriately fits this description.

3. The third meaning of the word alaqah is 'blood clot'. We find that the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs during the alaqah stage is similar to that of a blood clot. This is due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo during this stage. Also during this stage the blood in the embryo does not circulate until the end of the third week. So the embryo at this stage is like a clot of blood.

By examining a diagram of the primitive cardiovascular system in an embryo during the alaqah stage we would notice the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs is similar to that of a blood clot due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo

[The Developing Human, p. 65]

So the three meanings of the word alaqah correspond accurately to the descriptions of the embryo at the alaqah stage.

The next stage mentioned in the verse is the mudghah stage. The Arabic word mudghah means "chewed-like substance." If one were to take a piece of gum and chew it in his mouth, and then compare it with the embryo at the mudghah stage, we would conclude that they would be almost identical because of the somites at the back of the embryo that 'somewhat resemble teeth marks in a chewed substance.'

the universe is indeed gods creation

there r many more gems in the quran which modern science have discoverd only recently.

among these most stunning is how quran describes the developement of a baby in a mothers womb upto incredible details.modern medical sciences established the same facts to be true only recently.

the unbelievers will never understand all this...bcz Allah (swt)let them not understand till he wills.jazakallah for ur study and thanks for sharing

sometimes we better leave things behind.Let natures take it course.as of now,all i wannna say is thank you with all my heart to the creator.whoever he is.May he make me live till the answer to this debate finalize.

ameen.

indeed!

Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density.

[Principles of Oceanography - Davis, pp. 92-93]

For example, Mediterranean Sea water is warm, saline and less dense, compared to Atlantic Ocean water. When Mediterranean Sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometers into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1,000 meters with its own warm, saline and less dense characteristics.

The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth.

[Principles of Oceanography p. 93]

The Mediterranean Sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C).

Even in depths (indicated here by darker colors) up to 1,400 meters and at distances ranging from a minus -100 to +2,500 meters, we find that both bodies of water maintain their individual temperatures and salinity.

Although there are large waves, strong currents, and tides in these seas, they do not mix or transgress this barrier.

The Holy Quran mentioned that there is a barrier between two seas that meet and that they do not transgress. God said:

He has let free the two seas meeting to gather. There is a barrier between them. They do not transgress.

[Noble Quran 55:19-20]

But when the Quran speaks about the divider between fresh and salt water, it mentions the existence of "a forbidding partition" with the barrier.

God said in the Quran:

He is the one who has let free the two bodies of flowing water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition.

[Noble Quran 25:53]

On may ask, why did the Quran mention the partition when speaking about the divider between fresh and salt water, but did not mention it when speaking about the divider between the two seas?

Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a "pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers."

[Oceanography p. 242]

This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water

[Oceanography p. 244 and Introductory Oceanography pp. 300-301]

This information has been discovered only recently using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: the fresh water, the salt water, the partition (zone of separation).

Allah said in the Quran:

Or (the unbelievers' state) is like the darkness in a deep sea. It is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. Darkness, one above another. If a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it...

[Noble Quran 24:40]

This verse mentions the darkness found in deep seas and oceans, where if a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it. The darkness in deep seas and oceans is found around a depth of 200 meters and below. At this depth, there is almost no light. Below a depth of 1,000 meters there is no light at all

[Oceans Elder and Pernetta p.27]

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Human beings are not able to dive more than forty meters without the aid of submarines or special equipment. Human beings cannot survive unaided in the deep dark part of the oceans, such as at a depth of 200 meters.

Scientists have recently discovered this darkness by means of special equipment and submarines that have enabled them to dive into the depths of the oceans.

We can also understand from the following sentences in the previous verse, "..in a deep sea. It is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds,..." that the deep waters of seas and oceans are covered by waves, and above these waves are other waves.

It is clear that the second set of waves are the surface waves that we see, because the verse mentions that above the second waves there are clouds. But what about the first waves? Scientists have recently discovered that there are internal waves which "occur on density interfaces between layers of different densities."

[Oceanography, Gross, p. 205]

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The internal waves cover the deep waters of seas and oceans because the deep waters have a higher density than the waters above them. Internal waves act like surface waves. They can also break just like surface waves. Internal waves cannot be seen by the human eye, but they can be detected by studying temperature or salinity changes at a given location.

A book entitled "Earth" is considered a basic reference text in many universities around the world. One of the authors of this book is Frank Press. He is currently the President of the Academy of Sciences in the USA. Previously, he was the science advisor to former USA President Jimmy Carter. His book says that mountains have underlying roots

[p. 435]

. These roots are deeply embedded in the ground. So mountains have a shape like a peg as is seen in an example on page 220 in the same book. Another illustration shows how the mountains are peg-like in shape, due to their deep roots

[p. 158]

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This is how the Quran described mountains. God said in the Quran:

Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs?

[Noble Quran 78:6-7]

Modern earth sciences have proven that mountains have deep roots under the surface of the ground and that these roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground. So the suitable word to describe mountains on the basis of this information is the word 'peg', since most of a properly set peg is hidden under the surface of the ground. The history of science tells us that the theory of mountains having deep roots was introduced only in the latter half of the nineteenth century.

[Geological Concept of Mountains p.5]

Mountains also play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth.

[Geological Concept of Mountains pp. 44-45]

. They hinder the shaking of the earth. God said in the Quran:

And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you...

[Noble Quran 16:15]

Likewise the modern theory of plate tectonics holds that mountains work as stabilizers for the earth. This knowledge about the role of mountains as stabilizers for the earth has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960's

[Geological Concept of Mountains p. 5]

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Could anyone during the time of the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) have known of the true shape of mountains? Could any one imagine that the solid massive mountain which he sees before him, actually extends deep into the earth and has a root, as scientists assert? A large number of books of geology when discussing mountains, only describe that part which is above the surface of the earth. This is because these books were not written by specialists in geology. However, modern geology has confirmed the truth of the Quran's verses.

According to the scientists today:

"Water vaporizes from the oceans and rivers forming tiny clouds. The small clouds join together and the updrafts within the larger cloud increase. The updrafts closer to the center are stronger, because they are protected from the cooling effects by the outer portion of the cloud. These updrafts cause the cloud body to grow vertically, so the cloud is stacked up. This vertical growth causes the cloud body to stretch into cooler regions of the atmosphere where drops of water and hail formulate and begin to grow larger and larger. When these drops of water and hail become too heavy for the updrafts to support them, they begin to fall from the cloud as rain, hail, etc."

[From "The Atmosphere" p. 269 and "Elements of Meteorology" pp. 141-142]

- Now just for the sake of argument, let us see what the "Muslim scientists" used to formulate their understandings centuries ago based on the revelation of the Quran (revealed 1400 years ago):

Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it...

[Noble Quran 24:43]

Meteorologists have only recently come to know these details of cloud formation, structure, and function by using advanced equipment like planes, satellites, computers, balloons, and other equipment to study wind and its direction, to measure humidity and its variations, and to determine the levels and variations of atmospheric pressure.

The preceding verse, after mentioning clouds and rain, Quran speaks about hail and lightning:

... And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky, and He strikes with it whomever He wills, and turns it from whomever He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight.

[Noble Quran 24:43]

Meteorologists have found that these cumulonimbus clouds, that shower hail, reach a height of 25,000 to 30,000 ft. (4.7 to 5.7 miles) like mountains, as the Quran says;

...And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky...

[Noble Quran 24:43]

Now this verse may raise the question: "Why does the verse say "its lightning" while referring to hail? This seems to indicate that hail is a major factor in producing lightning. Looking to a book on the subject (Meteorology Today) we find that it says:

"Clouds become electrified as hail falls through a region in the cloud of super cooled droplets and ice crystals. As liquid droplets collide with the hail they freeze on contact and release latent heat. This keeps the surface of the hail warmer than that of the surrounding ice crystals. When the hail comes in contact with an ice crystal, an important phenomenon occurs: electrons flow from the colder object toward the warmer object. So, the hail becomes negatively charged. The same effect occurs when super cooled droplets come in contact with a piece of hail and tiny splinters of positively charged ice break off. These lighter, positively charged particles are then carried to the upper part of the cloud by updrafts. The hail, left with a negative charge, falls toward the bottom of the cloud, so the lower part of the cloud becomes negatively charged. These negative charges are then discharged to the ground as lightning.

[Meteorology Today p. 437]

This information on lightning was discovered recently. Until 1,600 A.D., Aristotle's ideas on meteorology were dominant in the non-Muslim countries. For example, he said that the atmosphere contains two kinds of exhalation, moist and dry. He also said that thunder is the sound of the collision of the dry exhalation with the neighboring clouds, and lightning is the inflaming and burning of the dry exhalation with a thin and faint fire.

[Works of Aristotle Translated into English pp. 369 a&b]

These are some of the ideas on meteorology that were dominant at the time of the Quran's revelation, fourteen hundred years ago.