Intresting Article - India's caste system ...
.......'is thousands of years old', DNA shows.
Reseachers analysed the DNA of 132 individuals with wide-ranging backgrounds from 25 diverse groups around India.
They found evidence of strong inbreeding leading to genetic groups that had been isolated from each other for thousands of years.
Most people had a mixture of genes from two ancient populations representing traditionally upper-caste individuals and everyone else.
The first was genetically close to people from the Middle East, Central Asia and Europe, while the second had an 'Ancestral South Indian' lineage confined to the subcontinent.
The research challenges the notion that India's notorious rigid caste system, with its priestly Brahmans and low-status 'untouchables', was largely manufactured by the British.
Some historians claim that while a caste system of sorts had existed since ancient times, in its original form it was not hereditary or inflexible and allowed people to move up and down the social ladder.
It was the British who cemented the caste system into Indian society and culture by using it as a basis of a ''divide and rule'' policy, it is alleged. The caste system was a convenient means of keeping society under control.
The new findings published in the journal Nature indicate that, genetically at least, Indians had been divided long before the British arrived.
The scientists analysed more than 500,000 genetic markers from people representing 13 states, all six language families in India, traditionally ''upper'' and ''lower'' castes, and tribal groups.
One group of Andaman islanders was, unusually, related exclusively to the Ancestral South Indian lineage.
Co-author Dr Nick Patterson, from the Harvard University/MIT Broad Institute in Massachusetts, US, said: ''The Andamanese are unique. Understanding their origins provides a window onto the history of the Ancestral South Indians, and the period tens of thousands of years ago when they diverged from other Eurasians.''
The research has important health implications for Indians. Other genetically isolated groups such as Ashkenazi Jews are well known to suffer from an increased incidence of genetic diseases. The same may be true for many groups in India, the scientists believe.
"The finding that a large proportion of modern Indians descend from founder events means that India is genetically not a single large population, but instead is best described as many smaller isolated populations," said Dr Lalji Singh, one of the study leaders from the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology in Hyderabad, India.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/6224560/Indias-cast...
Like I said , the way you expect other people to respect these characters is funny. I mean, they dont mean anything to me in my life, and you still insist I should respect them coz YOU believe in them! WOW! (Ever thought of reciprocating on that account?)
Dont mind respeting the rulers coz I am in their country and I need to accept which side of the bread is buttered.and its quite the norm to refer to the rulers by their first names, in the media, without Mr or HH or whatever. Chk out some newspaper headlines.
Btw, you are yet to clarify about my questions on what I posted at 3:46
in front of the rulers....Shaikh or Emir with His Highness (H.H) and His Excellency (H.E) with all other ministers....pls note prophets can never be compared to rulers/ministers.
Don't follow the dictionary...as you assumed Prophets are men BUT chosen gentlemen by Allah and much much more respectful then where we/common men stand; so it is obligatory for us to call their names with highly respectful manner e.g Prophet Musa (Alaih Salaam) or Prophet Moses (Peace be on Him). Nothing personal but this is important and it matters in our religion.
Rest tomorrow, quite busy at work.
As far as I am aware it is silent, however it does ban shellfish and some christain sects abide by that
Exiled:
(Disclaimer: The following has been copy pasted from previous posts in QL)
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The Bible prohibits the consumption of pork, in the book of Leviticus
"...and the swine, as he divideth the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."
Leviticus chapter 11 verse 7 and 8
"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass."
Deuteronomy chapter 14 verse 8
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http://www.qatarliving.com/discussion/islam-qatar-and-pork-20dec2006
http://www.qatarliving.com/answers/customs-and-etiquette/im-visiting-friends-in-qatar-soon-is-it-ok-to-bring-packed-bacon-into-qatar
exiled: Does the second book explicitly state that pork is allowed? Or is it silent? Need to differentiate there.
About whoever turned water into wine, I say bring him back. We need more of that sort. :-p
Mr. is the most commonly used English honorific for men. (Honorific: a word or expression that conveys esteem or respect when used in addressing or referring to a person)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_(Mr.)
Do tell me how it becomes disrespectful when the subject is a prophet. They are also men, right?
Talking abt Emir, I Have seen the media in UAE referring to their rulers with the first name, Muhammed or Khalifa. They dont even use a Mr. Is that disrespectful, victory?
Winn in the first book pork was out, but in the second book pork is ok again, but by book 3 pork was outlawed again.
In book 1 and 2, alcohol is ok, (a prophet even turned water into wine at a party) but by book 3 its outlawed again.
No wonder us humans are so confused.
"are for information and a lesson for generation to follow next": Again, what is the lesson here?
"Whatever happened and practise followed in those days were legal at that particular period."-Legal? Where does legal come in religion? you mean (supposedly)sanctioned by God or sanctioned by the state? There is a difference.
So you are saying that God sanctioned human sacrifice at one time and took away the sanction at a later time? Whoa!
"all old instructions get bad and shall not be followed there after". Are you calling that sacrifice an instruction? I thought it was an anecdote. So the story is now bad and follower's shouldnt follow it , as per Quran, is what you are saying?
Do tell me which was the scripture that allowed pork.
On a further note, i do not understand animal sacrifices either. I mean, do you REALLY believe that you need to slit some throat to please your God?
You wanna eat the meat, fine, slaughter it. But why do you feel the need to drag your big guy and make an accomplice out of him ?
Quran is the ultimate book, thatz are OUR core belief. whatever happened to prior messengers referred in the holy book, are for information and a lesson for generation to follow next. Whatever happened and practise followed in those days were legal at that particular period.
Hope you know that Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was the last among all messengers; when the new sets of instructions revealed from Allah called Quran, all old instructions get bad and shall not be followed there after such as alcohol / pork was allowed among followers of scriptures before Islam emerged.
Muslims doesn't followed whatever Bible or Jesus said but we follow whatever Quran and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) informed and asked.
On the first point, I agree that the suspicion is the events could be a fallout of internal rivalry and personal failure of the scientist to pursue success.
Which I am also not very sure but it is all depend on the media communication what get relayed to us.
Hope i cleared your point.
It is NOT respectful to use Mr. in front of prophets like incase of Emir....please note and amend your post.
exile - Kashmir, whats the issue, its a domestic problm brother and the state had 67% turn out in the last poll. so u dont stand a chance on that , leave it to us.
You take the kohinoor. wht about the rest which was taken out during those 200 years of invasion?? now..keep it and be happy with it. :)
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- Listen to Many...Speak to a Few -
Victory: Nice to know that you are here to explain.
Please explain my query in the previous post. How can this man's intent and attempt to perform human sacrifice (on his perception of God's will)be justified and glorified when genrally cults who do that are looked down upon (and rightly so)?
Religion might not be based on one instance but every instance has a significance. no? and sometimes you do use single instances to prove ur points like saying that "the prophet once said/did this, which means Islam stands for this".
About your errata: He might be a prophet to you, but he isnt a prophet for me.
FU: You do not need my permission to keep scores or whatever.:)
religion....be careful Refree FU....
our religion is not based on one instance dear, it has series of stories followed by instructions from Allah and more detail explanations from Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) which forbid human killings and asked to offer animal sacrifice.
Read the whole Quran and related illustrations to understand accurately, if you still have doubts, I am always here to explain :-)
small errata please no Mr. in front of Prophets names.
Thanks and peace
...but deligent scoring is important. Otherwise it will be a draw and I hate draws...
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
...so is victory. Congratulations to both of you. There are very few on QL like you both. Maybe Darude and Gypsy along with Xena and FS stand a chance.
Caste system in India is a well documented phenomenon and it does not need to be debated on a forum where most members have already made up their mind. Plus biases do not get resolved on forums like QL. My two cents. I prefer to keep it light.
Now,can I keep the score?
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
well, victory the point here is that Mr.Ibrahim Pbuh was ready to commit human scarifice coz he 'thought' his God wanted that from him.whether the sacrifice happened or not, the fact remains that he was fully prepared to do it and the story is still being told in glorified terms!!
How does he differ in anyway from any other cult follower who believed that his god demanded human blood to sate its thirst? Only the fact that this guy is mentioned in a positive light in your holy book, IMHO.
well, FU, there are quite a few past posts in which victory raises questions but doesnt give answers when some one els does the same. If I ask questions he goes on to ask a different question. The ploy is called 'what-about'ery.
Anyway, I guess its not about scoring, its about debating.
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
When Allah asked Ibrahim (Peace Be on Him) to sacrifice his most beloved; he checked and confirmed that its was directing him towards his Son Ismail then he prepared him for sacrifice. At the last minute before he slit with knife, Allah changed the sacrifice into a Sheep......similarly all muslims, who could afford follow the sunnah of prophet Ibrahim in sacrificing a camel, goat, cow, buffalo or sheep.
That was Abraham I think, what I think of your God to ask of you!
Winn...the son was Nachiketa.
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
then who was the one who was asked to sacrifice his son..?
somebody will increase our knowledge by explaining the trait and concept of human sacrifice and might relate it to religion.
I know about animal sacrifice and asked by Allah,once to Ibrahim (Peace Be on Him) to sacrifice his most beloved.....
Victory: First of all, I do not get whats the link between the topic and that news . Second,
"The suspicion is the events could be a fallout of internal rivalry.
“At present we can’t say it’s a case of an attempted human sacrifice,” the additional superintendent of police, Gwalior, Manohar Singh Verma, said.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1091012/jsp/nation/story_11604857.jsp
Sharma, said to be unwell, reportedly dozed off but woke up to find the duo lunging at him with an axe- Quite convenient.
Connect the bits and pieces and what you get is a murder plot and a poor attempt at sensationalism , which unfortunately, a large section of Indian media seems to be specialising in now a days. Too bad, you were hungry (for something negative)enough to swallow that.
Again, ven if this was indeed a matter of superstition, crazy cults arent anything new. Religion and beliefs in general seem to inspire the worst in human beings.
Dashing: Thanx for the pointers. Quite a few of em do make sense. Especially point 7, I really wish we could do that, but the human rights groups would cry foul at the very thought. Freedom of religion and so on ...
For (9)terrorism, yes here too India should be showing more muscle. btw, did you read about the recent article by a chinese think tank about why they should take intitiative to destabilise India?Quite scary. and then the maoist attacks happen. Quite a coincidence.
But again , how good does the whole picture look when you take a look at the human rights records (not that india is much ahead there) since you are already talking about the wastage of human resources. I mean the governmental control over what would be considered basic human rights in most parts of the world?
Also, the challenges that India as a nation faces are different. The basic tenet of our constituition is unity in diversity and not compulsory confirmation. Sustaining diversity AND ensuring progress is a HUGE order. (Just think about 22 officially recognised languages and 1600+ dialects alone...and thats just the tip of the iceberg) One cant just transplant a policy from country to country. But yes, we do need to bring out certain sectors from their backwards mentality and negative beliefs, if we are to progress.
To quote an oft-repeated witticism,
'India is a working anarchy'.
Arein, what about Kashmir and that bit near Bangladesh that wants independence?
Yes I did enjoy the loot this summer, went to the Tower of London and saw the Koh-i-Noor, but then again the Mughals did steal it from the Afghans who stole it from the Persians...
China has an exorbitant rate of executed death penalties. They are also the world leaders in that! So much for "harmony".
Winn....Here is how China is way ahead of India.
1. China's per capita gdp is at least three times that of India's;
2. China's infrastructure is way ahead of India's and China is still constructing at a furious pace;
3. China is way ahed in terms of agricultural production;
4. Corruption is everywhere in India; there is corruption in China but it is not ramapant throughout the whole society;
5. China has a proper family planning policy;
6. More than 99% of Chinese children attend school for 10+ years. In India literacy is still very low;
7. China has abolished superstition and religion is only a small problem in China;
8. Anyone in China can get an education and there is more and more social mobility;
8. China has more social harmony and less terrorism than India
I believe China is far more ready than India to succeed in the modern world. It seems to me that India has to overcome its rigid, superstitious and backward social conditions before the economy can speed up and begin to catch up with China.
duplicate
Amazing incident at DRDA......Scientist or Tantrik? ...
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/two-scientists-allegedly-attempt-human-sacrifice/103067-3.html?from=search
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/mp-cops-to-probe-scientists-for-human-sacrifice-bid/103095-3.html?from=search
Dream on exile. It will be united for ever.. You enjoy the loot. :)
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- Listen to Many...Speak to a Few -
Blafour expressed sympathy for the cause he did not promise....
anyway none of this land is promised to anyone. to get excited about bits of grass is just too much...
Sorry Arien for that. Just think if all the states were their own country we would have a lot more test playing nations! (and probably more wars..)
LOL...exile! yes its better not to go to promised land territory, I guess. Remember what that bungling nerd of a Balfour did in 1917?
Dont see why you call eritrea gay.
and Ethiopia...in my wishlist of 'must visit' places
exiled:"Eby that never happens in India! That sort of illicit relations would lead to death for the woman before she gave birth..."
Donno where you got that impression but there are quite a few intercaste marriages happening in India. and its not recent phenomenon. Yes ther has been instances where such people have been persecuted also. But the number of persecuted is a minority when you consider the number of intercaste marriages. Infact there are even govt grants to support/reward intercaste marriages. Example being..
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/UP-to-reward-inter-religion-inter-caste-marriages/articleshow/5090640.cms
Kindly note that this is being initiated by a democratically elected body who have to face the people again in next election. Would they pass such a law if the majority was going to be against it?
Oh yes exile.. hadnt India been invaded and looted by the brits, Each of its state would be a country.Thanks a lot for uniting us.
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- Listen to Many...Speak to a Few -
ok
do ur best, but i'm damn sure, these ....... racist will not agree.
Best of luck :)
oh dear, lets not get into promised land territory..... or people will all want to go back to their homeland...
I for one would like to claim Ethiopia as that is where my ancestors came from. (Well except that Eritrea part, that's a bit gay....)
dotcom: Not educating, dotcom , just pointing out certain facts that have been overlooked in this debate.
why are u educating those, who don't know who was their ..........
The king was mythical (there are historians who believe he existed, but its so old I would rather call it mythical), but the concept wasn't. You will find the references in quite a few scriptures that date back thousands of years. End of the day, what matters is that, whether the king existed or not, the people in the subcontinent had the concept. Concepts of 'promised land's and land belonging to a particular ethnicity is nothing new, right?
Dashing: sorry to say, but china isnt a great model to follow, IMHO. Do tell me in what aspects are the utilisation of human resources in china better than that in India. Wish you could enlighten me on the parameters you referred to come to the conclusion that India wastes more human resources
The mythical King of Bharat? I'm not going to google something that is mythical. The Mughal Empire, the Princely States yes they existed, but mythical...
Exiled: What made you think I was serious? You really thought that Long John and Magellan thing was me being serious?
As for the concept of India starting in 1947, do a google search for 'BharatVarsh'. It came from the name of a mythical King Bharat who ruled much before 3000 BC and was supposed to contain the land between "North of the sea (i.e. the Indian Ocean) and exactly south of the snowy mountain (i.e. the Himalayas)". The concept has been a part of epic and folklore eons before columbus stumbled on America.
As for British uniting India, yes they did, but they did not leave it as one country. In 1947, they gave independence and along with it, a mandate for all 600 princely states to decide whether they wanted to secede or unite. They did not leave 'INDIA' behind. What they left behind was civil war,chaos and uncertainity. What they left was 600 princely states. It was the work of Sardar Vallabhai patel (called the Iron Man of India) and V.K .KrishnaMenon that resulted in annexation of all those princely states and formation of the Republic of India. A herculean but largely unrewarded, unsung task which is still being put in the credit of British.
dashing: Quite a sad truth, that. But sorry to disappoint you, quite a large population of India does get well along with each other inspite of caste and all. There are black spots where the country still seems to be in dark ages, but India is a country with more realities than one. You find a whole spectrum. and every reality is an integral part of the spectrum. Isolating one band and saying 'this is India' would be quite like the story of Blind men meeting the elephant.( ;)pun intended). People not getting along with each other based on color and occupation is a global phenomena. Regret to inform you that Indians cant claim complete credit for that.
I doubt if any society can escape superstition and extreme social divisions without some kind of socialist revolution or powerful social democratic movement. Two countries I know a bit about are China and Cuba. Nowadays, as opposed to before the Revolution, China doesn't have the kind of waste of human resources there is still in India as a result of that country's caste system; and if you go to Cuba you might notice how well all the people can get along with eachother regardless of colour or occupation.
The bit I don't get is this, DNA from around India from thousands of years ago. India has only existed in its present state since 1947. India as a geographical area only really came into existence when the British annexed it and called it as such.
Eby that never happens in India! That sort of illicit relations would lead to death for the woman before she gave birth...
One flaw to the theory could be adultry and illegitimate child between the "upper" and "lower" class was practiced
... the Kerala mafia are watching....
once i was kidding with a Keralite, that i'm planning to have a Tea shop, now i'm banned there for Tea. :D
I was trying to be funny.... obviously the joke was lost on you.... I never knew Keralites were so sensitive... maybe you are worried you will lose your position in Qatar and the other Indians will revolt!
system , still exist there???
Cast system in Todays lingo
1. Brahmanas - Priests, Teachers, Authors, Librarians
2. Kshatriyas - Administration, Army and law enforcement
3. Vaishyas - Traders/Businessmen, regarding agriculture, commerce
4. and shudras - Labourers.
This 4 divisions of Society were also common in China and to a certain extent also in Japan.
ROFL @ the KERALA caste!
"Ali Baba and 40 thieves" are now "Ali Baba and 30 thieves" ; 10 were laid off.
In fact people did not have to move....
It is the continents that started to drift...slowly .....after the tower of bable incident.
Its quite unimaginable people crossing oceans in small boats.
There is also a theory that Freemasons had this inside knowledge and maps passed down through generations of about the moving continents.....thats why these guys came out in search for "India" and landed in America. Also note there were people already residing there.
Lol winn , I read and left it bro. They jump on every opportunity to bash even when they dont know wht it is.
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- Listen to Many...Speak to a Few -
exiled: Kerala is a S T A T E which is a very different thing from C A S T E. ( did the spelling confuse you, my dear?) A state is.....sighhhh...i give up!
yeah keralites are one caste, rest of indians is another caste and were dropped off in Qatar by Long John Silver by the order of Ferdinand Magellan.
who's are invited here?
:P
So how does the caste system work in Qatar? Keralites at the top taking advantage of the other Indians at the bottom?
First of all, whoever said Brits started casteism has his head buried deep in sand. It is quite true that they did use it in their 'divide n rule' policy and exploited it wherever it suited them, but they definitely did not start it , IMHO. and they did use it as an excuse as to why India has to be de-sanskriticed. Macaulay had a very interseting take on how this could be used to create a subclass within india, Indian in looks but servile to the British.
As for the people from Andaman, do take a look at the map. Its an island in the Bay of Bengal and hence far removed from the mainland. Inbreeding doesnt need caste system there.
Also if you see the typical agrarian society, they do not move. Moving would have meant crossing quite a lot of geographical barriers which is not something farmers generally do.
They have a point on DNA validating caste system if samples from the same site showed those distinct races. I do not see any mention towards that, here.
"The first was genetically close to people from the Middle East, Central Asia and Europe, while the second had an 'Ancestral South Indian' lineage confined to the subcontinent. "- That would be the Aryans and Dravidians, I suppose. still there are quite a few historians who still claim that the 'Aryan invasion' is a myth'
DNA - Found genetically close to middle east / europe. Cool, does it have a direction how it moved? India to the middleast and west or from there to India?? :)
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- Listen to Many...Speak to a Few -
interesting article
so the very large explodin population do hv different sources!!!!!
Pay peanuts & you get Monkeys
Then the Indians started it, and the Brits took advantage of it?
the article suggests the opposite
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
So the Brits started the casteism?