Extremely limited knowledge on any of the above mentioned topics, so I will take your word about the corruption. Though my point was more about Bush having to be seen by the American people as making positive action towards protecting their future. If he had done nothing after the twin tower attacks, the media & his opposition would have annihilated his reputation.
MissX war on Iraq was launched in the wake of 9/11?? What Iraq or more specifically Saddam had to do with that. Iraq as cc said already was a country already down to its knees with all the sanctions imposed and hardly posed a threat to anyone. It was like USA attacked Afghanistan, couldn't get hold of Osama. Bush got frustrated, looked around to see who can he attack next and there was Iraq. All the oil he will control now will be a surplus so lets go for it. WMDs a very popular term those days, were any ever found???
Saddam may have been defeated in '91 but I dont remember him bowing down to US pressure even after that. Maybe he just rubbed the bush family the wrong way sometime earlier for which they were after him. How decimating Iraq helped to protect the future of US citizens I dont know. If they have become so paranoid after 9/11 that they think any country can come and attack them then why stop after Iraq, there are lots of countries out there who don't agree with US policies, lets go after them one by one.
Crapcircle I agree about Hitler that he started going wrong when he developed this obsession about the jews, He blamed them solely for Germans poor state at that point of time and rather than looking for some individuals who may or may not have been culprits, he just went after the whole race. I don't think we will ever fully agree on him because I still believe that for all his obvious flaws, he could have been remembered as a great leader rather than the greatest villain in modern history if he had chosen his policies a bit differently.
Dick Cheney quit his post as CEO of Halliburton in 2000 during the presidential election that year. Halliburton and it's civilian subsidiary Kellog Brown-Root have been instrumentally involved in every US military operation of the past two decades. They have supplied everything from laundry services and catering to fuel for the military. They have also been awarded the lion's share of "no-bid" contracts in post-war Iraq, and are a key player in the global business of building oil & gas pipelines. If you doubt what I say, I welcome your research in the matter, you may also find that Cheney's mentor, a certain Donald Rumsfeld was also highly involved with the transactions between the Pentagon and Halliburton, and how wouldn't he, after all, he was the defense secretary...
If this is a little too much to fathom since such grand crime and corruption does not happen in the very heart of the developed world, think again... Corporate interests are precisely what our capitalist global economy is built on, armies, diplomats, and politicians are merely tools that service them.
Again, I will point out that the USA had every right to go and seek Bin Laden and other Al-Qaeda figureheads after the Taleban government of Afghanistan so brazenly refused to cough them up (and we can further discuss this through the shame & disgrace that was Guantanamo), but what on earth did regime change in Iraq, an Iraq that was brought to it's knees through 12 years of sanctions on everything, have to do with it? I fail to see what threat the under equipped, underfunded forces of the Iraqi army posed to anyone. If regime change in Iraq was so important, I'm sure a tomahawk or two, or a few black ops specialists, could have done a much cleaner, cheaper and ultimately less damaging job.
I, in no way support the killing of people whatsoever. But in response to crapcircles comment on why the war was in the interests of the American people. I believe one of the reasons was to protect the future of the American people by sending a very aggressive message to anyone who wished to attack their way of life. You have to remember that this was in the wake of the attack of the twin towers.
Again, I am not condoning the war. But if the reasoning not to go to war, was as straightforward as you suggest crapcircle, then the decision would never have been made to go to war.
The hypocrisy of the whole SUPPORT OUR TROOPS campaign, through which any condemnation of the war was swiftly silenced. Well planned and executed dear neo-cons. Total inversion of morals. Fascist brainwash fully implemented. How is supporting someone who defends your homeland sending him to die in a far off land that never, ever, exercised ANY aggression against his country and his people? And you still find reasons to defend this genocidal criminal par-excellence? I'm speechless...
Let's not make the mistake of comparing the incomparable. I cannot state for sure how culpable are the lunatics that bomb civilians in comparison to Dubya. Fact, and I will here answer MissX too, before the American invasion of Iraq...No Al-Qaeda operatives or affiliates whatsoever! If there were any, they would have been swiftly dealt with by Saddam's enforcers. Today, it's a veritable carnival bizarre for all sorts of extremist psychopaths. Yes, I hope no one is blind to who is doing the bulk of the killing, it must be obvious to all if nothing to honour the million that will never return, but had the USA not went into a morass it was sternly warned against by a good three quarters of the international community, heck by it's own intelligence, and had it done it's job (I doubt it was up to it anyways), we wouldn't be where we are today.
And now on to the interests of the people. Is "revenge" an intrinsic interest of the people? Woe are they, for them war will never cease. Is "justice" of interest to the people? Where's Osama then? And with the defense spending involved, is it really that impossible to catch him? Something tells me he doesn't matter at all. The media only mention him when he makes a statement. For all we know, or more importantly care, he could be in Beverly Hills, cruising, living the high-life...
How is war in the interest of the American people? I can fully understand going after those that wronged you, but Iraq? You should know better. Dubya effectively politically assasinated Colin Powell when he made him read that ridiculous report to the UN Security Council, yup the one they STOLE (not crediting the author), from the top 3 results in GOOGLE. Come the hell on, it's your tax dollars, your military, and your countrymen, gunning around in a desolate wasteland, turning misery into catastrophe and getting bombed, shot at, hanged and decapitated in the process. Was it in the servicemen's interest? I bet all of them love their 20 assorted psychoactives they got for their PTSD. What was it all for in the end, well I'm afraid most Americans would rather stay oblivious. I don't want to pee on your patriotism but your country rarely does diddly-squat for you. Your elementary and secondary education are a shambles, no healthcare, getting FA for college is like pulling teeth (much like getting unemployment), I fail to see the point in defending Bush or any of his decisions...what about Katrina, I was in the States when it hit. When I turned the TV on, I thought a civil war broke out. Then he comes on to CONGRATULATE the inept FEMA retards. Look at the people he had in cabinet. Why did he have to remove 75% of them? Granted some like Powell and Armitage quit in dire shame. We could go on for hours, but regardless America and the whole world, because we all in a way depend on it, will be paying the dues for the 8 years of a moron and his cronies let loose on Washington.
I think people are a little too hard on Bush. That does not excuse any mistakes he made, but you have to understand that as a publicly elected President, he has to keep both the best interests of the American people and their opinions in mind when he is forced to make some of the hardest decisions in the world.
People claim to hate Bush now, but at the time, there were just as many people for the war, as there were against it. He was getting enormous pressure from the people to act against the terrorist acts that occurred while he was unfortunate enough to be serving his term as President. Had he not done anything, he would have receieved just as much criticism and potentially left America open to more attacks.
Like I said, it does not excuse any mistakes, but give him credit for having to make some damn hard decisions while the rest of the world looked on and judged.
CC, I certainly would agree that one is always morally responsible for unforseen consequences of one's actions (especially when, as you point out, there was information available.) But equally culpable are the people who carried out the murders in Iraq. I don't see Hitler's victims as equally culpable.
After all Winnie Churchill said in a great illustration of his character, "history will remember me as a hero, because I intend to write it!". Indeed we could argue the simplification of history but this is what consumer culture wants, simple, blanket rationalizations. Germany=Mordor, Hitler=Sauron. So much easier to think of it that way and I agree. But a land invasion of Japan would have been mass suicide, and a naval blockade would have yielded little, Japan isn't the Turks & Caicos or something.
If Hitler wanted to exact vengeance on the Jews that committed treason against Germany, he could have easily executed publicly the people responsible after due trial, no qualms there. But he went after women, children, friggin' dwarves like the Lilliput Troupe for hell's sake... Pollution of the youth and cultural retardation was a big deal Hitler raised. I don't see how "Entartete Kunst" was anyhow admirable, and far from necessary. His forced classicism and love of the Roman empire was all part of his unbelievable propaganda machine. Have you watched "Triumph des Willens" by Leni Reifenstahl? Awesome movie, they should show it in elementary schools to kids as an example of how choreography, dramatism and careful placement of emphasis can brainwash people in their millions. And how a smart "apparatus" (in this case the ministry of propaganda) in government hands can misconstrue any ancient wound as a growing cancer. Goebbels was no fool, perhaps the most skilled man the Reich had, and probably up there with Himmler as the most profoundly evil.
Here was a government that tried to take away not only your ability to think freely, but even to influence your taste in art, to tell society how everything should be, and while the Beetle may have been a true wonder of "Kraft durch Freude", the Prora was an abomination even Stalin did not come up with to appease his people with as "reward". Little was in store there for the Germans really. The fuhrer gets the Eagle's Nest. The German gets a timeshare in...Prora of all places! Ripoff I say, and if for nothing else he deserves the dustbin of history for deluding and deceiving his own people.
How did the Yanks re-elect Bush? Because until now they voted, by and large, firstly on face value ("oh no, not ketchup guy"...I'm serious that was the justification I got nine out of ten times when I asked those that didn't vote for John Kerry), secondly on family affiliations...of my dad was a Cowboys fan and so am I. Registered republicans...I mean, come on...
Mandi he can be held accountable on the very plain reasoning that he did not show foresight. I fail to see how the world's most powerful country, biggest economy, superlatives ad infinitum could have such profound tunnel vision. And no it doesn't, Bush and the neo-cons were fairly warned by intelligence and advisors of what a hornet's nest they were about to drive a bulldozer through. That itself is grounds for trial and condemnation, country hijack!
Yesterday marked the 70th anniversary of the invasion of Poland, the beginning of WWII. It was reported in the media that over 50 million people were killed in that conflict. 12 million of those were deliberately exterminated on the orders of Hitler. Unfortunately we do not have figures for the death toll in Iraq. But as much as I detest Bush, I do not believe he can be held accountable for the sectarian violence and murder that has killed the majority of people in Iraq. Perspective is important.
crap - Again... His (Hitlers) Actions and their effects where Evil...
But the reason why all this started ???
Wht you mentioned is true ... but the WHY is answered in Mein Khempf...
Hitler... says... I don know the true state of Germany then.. but so share of you know anything...
He says.. there was a time.. when Jews where in the important positions in govt in germany.. and the policies which where made where very anti-German in nature.. it was killing the German culture...
He blames Jews for making Germans feel that they are bunch of good for nothing people..
The Youth was not enterprising.. they had lost themselves to Drugs and other entertainment...
the theatre and Movies where spoiling the culture...
Wht he did was wrong.. agreed.. those Nazi camps.. gas cambers... everything was wrong...
But tht was because Patriotism went out of hands...
he Blammed Jews for everything wrong happening in the country.....
Honestly... if you read the Germany Then is what all countries are today....
but luckily non of us is as Extremist in nature as he was...
He is a perfect example not to be followed...
but ONE Man .. who was a Soldier in Infantry in WW I... was the General and also prime reason for WW II...
Tht talks about his caliber as a Orator... as a leader...
If he could lead all the Germans to do the evil...
May be they where feeling the Pinch somewhere...
The Wound.. which he reminded to all.. and asked them to not bear it any more..
In a very wrong way of course...
Excess of anything is bad..even excess of Good..
Excess of sweet leads to Diabetics...
And BUSH.... certified Idiot.... The Clown in near by Circuses have More IQ than he has.....
if Americans hate the whole world.. and this was the way they wanted to show there Anger..... (by electing Bush..twice)... :)
Americans are more cruel than the Hitler was.... :)
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
CrapCircle I appreciate most of what you have just said, even I am thankful for the way things turned out in the end, don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to justify what Hitler did, It was wrong but just that wrongdoers were on both sides. I don’t think anything can justify the usage of atomic bombs. Though for my family personally it was a good thing, My grandfather who had spent 6 months in Japanese captivity got released one week after Hiroshima. As for Neo Nazism movement in Russia, It is worrying and I hope and pray they don’t get too powerful.
Bush I don’t even want to comment on that fellow anymore, How he got re-elected is beyond me.
Ashwin: When you come up with a justification how invading all your neighbours is saving a country from what anyone thinks is wrong, we can continue a meaningful discussion, and when you also explain how systematic eradication of an entire ethnic/religious group can anyhow be justified...
Sandeep: If you know WW1 so well I would assume you understood who the greatest criminals of WW2 were too. Hint: It wasn't the Germans. While I too once believed that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were avoidable, in the end the strategy and the decision were sound. After bloody nose ridge, would it have been logical of the US to undertake yet another beachhead invasion? Think about it a little...
I know full well what the Versailles treaty did to Germany. However, I don't understand principles of vengeance sorry. Regardless, what Germany undertook and what it's ultimate goals were, we're lucky things turned out the way they did. People only see the Holocaust, but what of the Roma, Eugenics, policies of cultural indoctrination...come on folks, the NS ideology was pure evil, don't try to make excuses for it. It's making a big comeback in Russia of all places, do you folks watch the news? How would you feel if a bunch of shaved heads in flight jackets got you under their steel toes because Adolf taught them you have no business in their land? Let's think a little please...
As for Afghanistan and Iraq, those two cannot be compared or even rationalized in one sentence. I believe the former was necessary, the latter was, agreed, a heinous crime and a violation of all international laws.
CrapCircle I just don’t think any person could be such a complete devil as Hitler is portrayed, neither were all the allied forces angels. Read Mein Kampf a few times from cover to cover and all I could see was a passionate but misguided person. He believed Germany was hard done by the Versailles treaty, so do I for that matter. I just find it strange that the person who authorised the use of Atomic Bombs and killed so many innocent civilians in Japan isn’t considered as bad as Hitler.
As for Bush I can’t understand what he was thinking or why the rest of the world didn’t do more to stop him. I don’t think Iraq or Afghanistan will ever exist as peaceful countries in future.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
I thought you a little smarter. Mein Kampf WAS WRITTEN BY ADOLF HITLER. This is a proven fact. Nothing good came out of that guy save the Autobahn and the VW Beetle. Reactionism is hardly justifiable. When s**t hits the fan, the easiest thing is to go to war...Bush and Hitler are in that respect, much the same of course.
Apparently, according to a recent encounter with an ex heavy boxing champion of Germany, in Torremolinos, Hitler was living happily in Bolivia until 1975!
so they also attacked the pentagon with another plane on the section that was just renewed with bullet proof glass and renforced concrete walls and all. that was gd planning atleast no one died in the pentagon
Exactly Ashwin, History is written by the conqueror, not the conquered so it will always portray a skewed view. Blaming Hitler alone for WW II is pretty naive, seeds of WW II were sown in Versailles in 1919, Such imbalance was created that something had to give sooner or later. Hitler had plenty of vices but also loads of virtues. BTW he didn’t drop atomic bombs in Japan either.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
I think it's actually gone over a million in Iraq hasn't it?
Moot point though. You really can't compare Hitler and Bush, not seriously anyway. If Bush were like Hitler he'd declare himself Chancellor and we'd still have to put up with him. As it is, he's been voted out. Good riddance.
Oh, for heaven's sake! WWII killed more than 20 million people. We don't have good numbers for Iraq but it could possibly be one to two hundred thousand. So tell me, is it a fair comparison?
Jizya was for Non Muslims and Zakat for the Muslims
Thats the difference, and both went to help the populous itself.
The Jizya is a tax levied on non-Muslims in lieu of military service which is compulsory for Muslims but not for non-Muslims.
The amount of Jizya is much less than the Zakat, which is levied on Muslims only. The non-Muslims paying Jizya were exempt from compulsory military service (and were also entitled to many rebates in this regard) in a Muslim State but were entitled to full protection.
Hitler was a racist as long as it was in his interest to indoctrinate. He persecuted Slavic people in Poland and Russia, but not in Bulgaria and Croatia which crucially sided with him. These are blanket statements and assumptions. This of course does not stand in his favour, as it clearly explains his politicant logic and practice had little to do with consistency and integrity, meaning, he preached one thing, actively pursued something else.
QatariLady: The Mein Kampf is a drab collection of antiquated political axioms of tit-for-tat vengeance, and while he does raise some valid points (after all this was a man who wasn't stupid by any stretch of the imagination, he was completely insane), these are merely tools to push forth a brutal and deplorable set of ideals, typical of a scorned reactionary that the mouthy Austrian was... The only thing worthy of admiration about Germany in that period is the rigor, ingenuity and work ethic, which were sadly utilized for all the wrong purposes. And a certain amount of knightly officers who despite everything kept their conscience and humanity in the worst of circumstances, Oskar Schindlers and the like...
Fine comparisons you are trying to make, Islamic tyrannies of yesteryear (which by the way, any self-respecting scholar of Islamic jurisprudence will tell you were naught but woeful misuse of faith for personal/familial goals), or middle ages to be more precise, and the United States of America. You sir, are in the wrong field, on an Albanian tractor. A couple thousand clicks deep...Show me ONE country with a majority muslim population that collects tax from people of other faiths, please do so, as you have steered the conversation into some absurdist comparisons...
If you want to compare righteously, compare the Moors to their successors and the Spanish kingdom. I'm sure you know how benevolent their conquistadors were in central America :)
As for the Ottomans, you can plainly compare them to the multitude of feudal kingdoms of Europe of the time, all of which answered to the will of the Vatican.
Let me tell you also, that I, coming from regions of what once was that same Ottoman empire, have no love for them whatsoever. My people were subjugated to them for a good 400 or so years. But during that time, while not only monetary tax was collected but blood tax as well (the culling of young boys from non-muslim villages who would be sent to Istanbul to be trained as Janissaries, the Ottoman infantry elite), at the very least they didn't declare crusades on a whim and proclaim people as heathens whose flesh is legal game to the brave executors of the Pope, thereby wiping out entire peoples as they saw fit, whenever rulers of Papal design were not instated or the tax to Vatican left unpaid. The Ottomans were in effect, not much different from other European royals. Many an Ottoman vizier, bey, pasha, princess were of descent other than that of the Ottoman Turks. They had their ignoble practices and their instruments of repression, like any tyrannical empire of the time before democracy even existed as a far fetched idea...to be honest, for an empire to be truly Islamic, the people must approve their ruler (Caliph), if you do a little research, you will find out that ever since the first four righteous caliphs after Muhammad's passing, this fundamental rule has never been observed.
This was the ways of the feudal age of Europe and the Middle East. I am sure you know Christianity well enough to be aware of the fact that the Catholic church did not always act as prescribed by Scripture. Neither did the Muslim empires follow the orders of the Qur'an as much as they should or indeed could have...Great were the sins committed in the name of God, and greater will be committed too the way things are going. Such is the nature of man and that is an entirely different topic of discussion...
You think of the people that joined in with him! They were either desperate or were just as bad, i.e the Japs. Some flew by his shirt tails or they had no choice. That does mean they agreed with him, they just had their own agenda.
Hitler was a cruel evil racist. The Bushes are/were just stupid and were driven by oil and they were/are bullies.
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The path to true happiness is paved with gin and tonics :-))))))
QatariLady: same motives. money. dominance. primarily money, dominance is only secondary, it's a necessary tool to secure the flow of money into the desired pockets...
popcorngirl: that's hardly true. what about Japs, Turks, Spaniards, Italians, the Vichy, Bulgarians, and many many others. They weren't Germanic, not by a long shot. Hitler pranced about with whoever agreed with him. If it wasn't for his woefully erroneous invasion of the USSR and ultimately, the involvement of a rather oblivious America, we'd all be singing different anthems today. Demonizing something for what it's not is false, as is romanticizing. Hitler was terrible and would have been terrible in the long run, but who's to know, that is just my opinion, I will admit zero powers of clairvoyance...
Hitler=kitsch painter=orator extraordinaire=socialist (we know how that party ends I'm afraid)=decent tactician=terrible strategist=vicious racist mass murderer=ultimately a failure in all respects.
W. Bush=moron=terrible tactician=appalling orator=no strategy whatsoever=miserable politician=woeful diplomat=ultimately a tool (in both senses of the word), and a crap one to boot.
You should compare Cheney and Hitler instead. H.W. Bush is another story altogether. That's the man draped in the chameleon cloak. Those that claim to understand his allegiances and agendas in truth know little next to nothing...
you's barking up the wrong lampposts there brudda...it's not the man, it's the policy. the man's gone, the policy is still there to a large extent...
Hitler too, compared to many of his aides he seemed like an angel. But media indoctrination is hard to shrug off...
are well documented. He had a deep hatred of anybody 'different' in his eyes. He wanted a super power; an Arian race. Homosexuals, retards, Jews, gypsies anybody he viewed as odd was eliminated. He thought he was a super power.
The latter is the only thing he had in common with the Bushes.
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The path to true happiness is paved with gin and tonics :-))))))
PM I thought that both the Hitler paintings you posted were decent, certainly not great, a bit bland and soulless paint by numbers type but I have seen many so called artists make it with less ability than his, I used to criticize how some of those half talented artists are treated as visionaries, but now I know that those people may have saved the world from world war 3 by becoming artists :) .
Times are different popcorngirl, the stupidity of Bush would have brought a world war too if it was done in early 20th century.
Just that Hitler for all his flaws was a great motivator, He was leading his men in wrong direction but all of them were behind him completely. I never got the feeling with Bush that all the Americans were 100 % behind him.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
OK that is very good but what about the non-muslim tax that was in force in Moorish Spain and the Ottoman Empire. Maybe equal in the face of law but not in a financial sense so it makes sense to convert....
Accurately stated PM thank you, and this is probably what enticed to to revert to Islam.
ExiledSaint , here is some lesser known facts about
THE COVENANT OF MEDINA
(The World's First Written Constitution)
After immigrating from Mecca to Medina, the Prophet Muhammad PBUH established a nation of equals based on the brotherhood between the Muslims in Medina and those from Mecca regardless of wealth or social status. The Muslims of Medina shared their wealth and homes with the immigrants from Mecca, who left their homes and possessions behind to escape from religious persecution.
Muhammad invited the Jews to join the new society as an independent nation, governed by rabbinical court, within the Muslim Nation. The Jews accepted and an agreement known as The Covenant of Medina was signed in 622 AD.
topic http://www.qatarliving.com/node/607089
Although i'm not sure about it being governed by a rabbinicial court
But I think the example set by the Prophet (saw) in which he didn't force Jews or Christians to convert is really what islam is about at it's heart. If only ... :-)
'IF HITLER HAD BEEN A HIPPY HOW HAPPY WOULD WE BE'
"When the artists Jake and Dinos Chapman bought a series of paintings by Adolf Hitler for £115,000, many questioned the morality of paying for works produced by one of history's most brutal dictators.
Yesterday, the brothers unveiled 13 of the watercolours, on which they had added psychedelic rainbows, stars and love hearts, and placed them back on the market for £685,000.
The Chapmans denied that the paintings, which are selling as a single work, sought to "redeem" Hitler, and classed the original watercolours as "bland" and lacking in talent. "The idea of redeeming Hitler is bad, the idea of redeeming his work is a staggering work of genius," said Jake.
He hoped the defacement of Hitler's work, which includes landscapes, vistas of Roman ruins and still life, which the dictator painted when he was young, would have him "spinning". The changes they had added meant it was no longer Hitler's work, he added.
"If hell exists and Hitler exists in it, he would be spinning if he saw these. It's not his work any more. It's our work," he said.
Following concerns that the work could be bought by Nazi sympathisers, White Cube Gallery in London, where it is showing, has stated that it will be extremely careful about who it sells to.
Dinos Chapman said the work, entitled If Hitler had been a Hippy How Happy Would We Be, was a rumination of what might have been had Hitler not been refused entry to Vienna's art school. He added they showed a "blankness" rather than any hint of the deadly pathology that he would later demonstrate.
"He tried to get into art school with these. They are bland and show no presentiment of the genocide to come. They represent the husk of a man who would be filled up with bitterness and hatred. They are identical to thousands of drawings in junk shops. All they demonstrate is that they are a terrible work of art, not that the person behind them will become a tyrant," he said."
"legitimate" but he was just so bad they wouldn't let him in. If they had, maybe he would have spared the history of art all those bad "Aryan" works installed in the Haus der deutschen Kunst. lol
There was only ONE civil war in the USA. But indeed estimates put the number of dead at over 9,000,000. Imagine! Just remember we were only killing ourselves :-P
Hitler was a brilliant tactician and great leader. He just got too carried away in his Aryan supremacy theory. Ofcourse he made that fatal mistake of attacking Russia at that point of time. Just my opinion.
Bush is just an idiot.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
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It depends on how one sees it. Just like the many who have idolised Osama and the many who condemmed him. What would they say
lol I have to bow out here.
Extremely limited knowledge on any of the above mentioned topics, so I will take your word about the corruption. Though my point was more about Bush having to be seen by the American people as making positive action towards protecting their future. If he had done nothing after the twin tower attacks, the media & his opposition would have annihilated his reputation.
MissX war on Iraq was launched in the wake of 9/11?? What Iraq or more specifically Saddam had to do with that. Iraq as cc said already was a country already down to its knees with all the sanctions imposed and hardly posed a threat to anyone. It was like USA attacked Afghanistan, couldn't get hold of Osama. Bush got frustrated, looked around to see who can he attack next and there was Iraq. All the oil he will control now will be a surplus so lets go for it. WMDs a very popular term those days, were any ever found???
Saddam may have been defeated in '91 but I dont remember him bowing down to US pressure even after that. Maybe he just rubbed the bush family the wrong way sometime earlier for which they were after him. How decimating Iraq helped to protect the future of US citizens I dont know. If they have become so paranoid after 9/11 that they think any country can come and attack them then why stop after Iraq, there are lots of countries out there who don't agree with US policies, lets go after them one by one.
Crapcircle I agree about Hitler that he started going wrong when he developed this obsession about the jews, He blamed them solely for Germans poor state at that point of time and rather than looking for some individuals who may or may not have been culprits, he just went after the whole race. I don't think we will ever fully agree on him because I still believe that for all his obvious flaws, he could have been remembered as a great leader rather than the greatest villain in modern history if he had chosen his policies a bit differently.
" Pele good, Maradona better, George BEST"
Dick Cheney quit his post as CEO of Halliburton in 2000 during the presidential election that year. Halliburton and it's civilian subsidiary Kellog Brown-Root have been instrumentally involved in every US military operation of the past two decades. They have supplied everything from laundry services and catering to fuel for the military. They have also been awarded the lion's share of "no-bid" contracts in post-war Iraq, and are a key player in the global business of building oil & gas pipelines. If you doubt what I say, I welcome your research in the matter, you may also find that Cheney's mentor, a certain Donald Rumsfeld was also highly involved with the transactions between the Pentagon and Halliburton, and how wouldn't he, after all, he was the defense secretary...
If this is a little too much to fathom since such grand crime and corruption does not happen in the very heart of the developed world, think again... Corporate interests are precisely what our capitalist global economy is built on, armies, diplomats, and politicians are merely tools that service them.
Again, I will point out that the USA had every right to go and seek Bin Laden and other Al-Qaeda figureheads after the Taleban government of Afghanistan so brazenly refused to cough them up (and we can further discuss this through the shame & disgrace that was Guantanamo), but what on earth did regime change in Iraq, an Iraq that was brought to it's knees through 12 years of sanctions on everything, have to do with it? I fail to see what threat the under equipped, underfunded forces of the Iraqi army posed to anyone. If regime change in Iraq was so important, I'm sure a tomahawk or two, or a few black ops specialists, could have done a much cleaner, cheaper and ultimately less damaging job.
I, in no way support the killing of people whatsoever. But in response to crapcircles comment on why the war was in the interests of the American people. I believe one of the reasons was to protect the future of the American people by sending a very aggressive message to anyone who wished to attack their way of life. You have to remember that this was in the wake of the attack of the twin towers.
Again, I am not condoning the war. But if the reasoning not to go to war, was as straightforward as you suggest crapcircle, then the decision would never have been made to go to war.
glad we agree :)
Crapcircle.... very well said.....Hats off
“We make a living by what we get; we make a life by what we give.”
Sir Winston Churchill
The hypocrisy of the whole SUPPORT OUR TROOPS campaign, through which any condemnation of the war was swiftly silenced. Well planned and executed dear neo-cons. Total inversion of morals. Fascist brainwash fully implemented. How is supporting someone who defends your homeland sending him to die in a far off land that never, ever, exercised ANY aggression against his country and his people? And you still find reasons to defend this genocidal criminal par-excellence? I'm speechless...
Let's not make the mistake of comparing the incomparable. I cannot state for sure how culpable are the lunatics that bomb civilians in comparison to Dubya. Fact, and I will here answer MissX too, before the American invasion of Iraq...No Al-Qaeda operatives or affiliates whatsoever! If there were any, they would have been swiftly dealt with by Saddam's enforcers. Today, it's a veritable carnival bizarre for all sorts of extremist psychopaths. Yes, I hope no one is blind to who is doing the bulk of the killing, it must be obvious to all if nothing to honour the million that will never return, but had the USA not went into a morass it was sternly warned against by a good three quarters of the international community, heck by it's own intelligence, and had it done it's job (I doubt it was up to it anyways), we wouldn't be where we are today.
And now on to the interests of the people. Is "revenge" an intrinsic interest of the people? Woe are they, for them war will never cease. Is "justice" of interest to the people? Where's Osama then? And with the defense spending involved, is it really that impossible to catch him? Something tells me he doesn't matter at all. The media only mention him when he makes a statement. For all we know, or more importantly care, he could be in Beverly Hills, cruising, living the high-life...
How is war in the interest of the American people? I can fully understand going after those that wronged you, but Iraq? You should know better. Dubya effectively politically assasinated Colin Powell when he made him read that ridiculous report to the UN Security Council, yup the one they STOLE (not crediting the author), from the top 3 results in GOOGLE. Come the hell on, it's your tax dollars, your military, and your countrymen, gunning around in a desolate wasteland, turning misery into catastrophe and getting bombed, shot at, hanged and decapitated in the process. Was it in the servicemen's interest? I bet all of them love their 20 assorted psychoactives they got for their PTSD. What was it all for in the end, well I'm afraid most Americans would rather stay oblivious. I don't want to pee on your patriotism but your country rarely does diddly-squat for you. Your elementary and secondary education are a shambles, no healthcare, getting FA for college is like pulling teeth (much like getting unemployment), I fail to see the point in defending Bush or any of his decisions...what about Katrina, I was in the States when it hit. When I turned the TV on, I thought a civil war broke out. Then he comes on to CONGRATULATE the inept FEMA retards. Look at the people he had in cabinet. Why did he have to remove 75% of them? Granted some like Powell and Armitage quit in dire shame. We could go on for hours, but regardless America and the whole world, because we all in a way depend on it, will be paying the dues for the 8 years of a moron and his cronies let loose on Washington.
Its like comparing two different pieces of shit...
“We make a living by what we get; we make a life by what we give.”
Sir Winston Churchill
I think people are a little too hard on Bush. That does not excuse any mistakes he made, but you have to understand that as a publicly elected President, he has to keep both the best interests of the American people and their opinions in mind when he is forced to make some of the hardest decisions in the world.
People claim to hate Bush now, but at the time, there were just as many people for the war, as there were against it. He was getting enormous pressure from the people to act against the terrorist acts that occurred while he was unfortunate enough to be serving his term as President. Had he not done anything, he would have receieved just as much criticism and potentially left America open to more attacks.
Like I said, it does not excuse any mistakes, but give him credit for having to make some damn hard decisions while the rest of the world looked on and judged.
CC, I certainly would agree that one is always morally responsible for unforseen consequences of one's actions (especially when, as you point out, there was information available.) But equally culpable are the people who carried out the murders in Iraq. I don't see Hitler's victims as equally culpable.
Mandi
After all Winnie Churchill said in a great illustration of his character, "history will remember me as a hero, because I intend to write it!". Indeed we could argue the simplification of history but this is what consumer culture wants, simple, blanket rationalizations. Germany=Mordor, Hitler=Sauron. So much easier to think of it that way and I agree. But a land invasion of Japan would have been mass suicide, and a naval blockade would have yielded little, Japan isn't the Turks & Caicos or something.
If Hitler wanted to exact vengeance on the Jews that committed treason against Germany, he could have easily executed publicly the people responsible after due trial, no qualms there. But he went after women, children, friggin' dwarves like the Lilliput Troupe for hell's sake... Pollution of the youth and cultural retardation was a big deal Hitler raised. I don't see how "Entartete Kunst" was anyhow admirable, and far from necessary. His forced classicism and love of the Roman empire was all part of his unbelievable propaganda machine. Have you watched "Triumph des Willens" by Leni Reifenstahl? Awesome movie, they should show it in elementary schools to kids as an example of how choreography, dramatism and careful placement of emphasis can brainwash people in their millions. And how a smart "apparatus" (in this case the ministry of propaganda) in government hands can misconstrue any ancient wound as a growing cancer. Goebbels was no fool, perhaps the most skilled man the Reich had, and probably up there with Himmler as the most profoundly evil.
Here was a government that tried to take away not only your ability to think freely, but even to influence your taste in art, to tell society how everything should be, and while the Beetle may have been a true wonder of "Kraft durch Freude", the Prora was an abomination even Stalin did not come up with to appease his people with as "reward". Little was in store there for the Germans really. The fuhrer gets the Eagle's Nest. The German gets a timeshare in...Prora of all places! Ripoff I say, and if for nothing else he deserves the dustbin of history for deluding and deceiving his own people.
How did the Yanks re-elect Bush? Because until now they voted, by and large, firstly on face value ("oh no, not ketchup guy"...I'm serious that was the justification I got nine out of ten times when I asked those that didn't vote for John Kerry), secondly on family affiliations...of my dad was a Cowboys fan and so am I. Registered republicans...I mean, come on...
Mandi he can be held accountable on the very plain reasoning that he did not show foresight. I fail to see how the world's most powerful country, biggest economy, superlatives ad infinitum could have such profound tunnel vision. And no it doesn't, Bush and the neo-cons were fairly warned by intelligence and advisors of what a hornet's nest they were about to drive a bulldozer through. That itself is grounds for trial and condemnation, country hijack!
Yesterday marked the 70th anniversary of the invasion of Poland, the beginning of WWII. It was reported in the media that over 50 million people were killed in that conflict. 12 million of those were deliberately exterminated on the orders of Hitler. Unfortunately we do not have figures for the death toll in Iraq. But as much as I detest Bush, I do not believe he can be held accountable for the sectarian violence and murder that has killed the majority of people in Iraq. Perspective is important.
Mandi
crap - Again... His (Hitlers) Actions and their effects where Evil...
But the reason why all this started ???
Wht you mentioned is true ... but the WHY is answered in Mein Khempf...
Hitler... says... I don know the true state of Germany then.. but so share of you know anything...
He says.. there was a time.. when Jews where in the important positions in govt in germany.. and the policies which where made where very anti-German in nature.. it was killing the German culture...
He blames Jews for making Germans feel that they are bunch of good for nothing people..
The Youth was not enterprising.. they had lost themselves to Drugs and other entertainment...
the theatre and Movies where spoiling the culture...
Wht he did was wrong.. agreed.. those Nazi camps.. gas cambers... everything was wrong...
But tht was because Patriotism went out of hands...
he Blammed Jews for everything wrong happening in the country.....
Honestly... if you read the Germany Then is what all countries are today....
but luckily non of us is as Extremist in nature as he was...
He is a perfect example not to be followed...
but ONE Man .. who was a Soldier in Infantry in WW I... was the General and also prime reason for WW II...
Tht talks about his caliber as a Orator... as a leader...
If he could lead all the Germans to do the evil...
May be they where feeling the Pinch somewhere...
The Wound.. which he reminded to all.. and asked them to not bear it any more..
In a very wrong way of course...
Excess of anything is bad..even excess of Good..
Excess of sweet leads to Diabetics...
And BUSH.... certified Idiot.... The Clown in near by Circuses have More IQ than he has.....
if Americans hate the whole world.. and this was the way they wanted to show there Anger..... (by electing Bush..twice)... :)
Americans are more cruel than the Hitler was.... :)
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
CrapCircle I appreciate most of what you have just said, even I am thankful for the way things turned out in the end, don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to justify what Hitler did, It was wrong but just that wrongdoers were on both sides. I don’t think anything can justify the usage of atomic bombs. Though for my family personally it was a good thing, My grandfather who had spent 6 months in Japanese captivity got released one week after Hiroshima. As for Neo Nazism movement in Russia, It is worrying and I hope and pray they don’t get too powerful.
Bush I don’t even want to comment on that fellow anymore, How he got re-elected is beyond me.
" Pele good, Maradona better, George BEST"
Ashwin: When you come up with a justification how invading all your neighbours is saving a country from what anyone thinks is wrong, we can continue a meaningful discussion, and when you also explain how systematic eradication of an entire ethnic/religious group can anyhow be justified...
Sandeep: If you know WW1 so well I would assume you understood who the greatest criminals of WW2 were too. Hint: It wasn't the Germans. While I too once believed that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were avoidable, in the end the strategy and the decision were sound. After bloody nose ridge, would it have been logical of the US to undertake yet another beachhead invasion? Think about it a little...
I know full well what the Versailles treaty did to Germany. However, I don't understand principles of vengeance sorry. Regardless, what Germany undertook and what it's ultimate goals were, we're lucky things turned out the way they did. People only see the Holocaust, but what of the Roma, Eugenics, policies of cultural indoctrination...come on folks, the NS ideology was pure evil, don't try to make excuses for it. It's making a big comeback in Russia of all places, do you folks watch the news? How would you feel if a bunch of shaved heads in flight jackets got you under their steel toes because Adolf taught them you have no business in their land? Let's think a little please...
As for Afghanistan and Iraq, those two cannot be compared or even rationalized in one sentence. I believe the former was necessary, the latter was, agreed, a heinous crime and a violation of all international laws.
CrapCircle I just don’t think any person could be such a complete devil as Hitler is portrayed, neither were all the allied forces angels. Read Mein Kampf a few times from cover to cover and all I could see was a passionate but misguided person. He believed Germany was hard done by the Versailles treaty, so do I for that matter. I just find it strange that the person who authorised the use of Atomic Bombs and killed so many innocent civilians in Japan isn’t considered as bad as Hitler.
As for Bush I can’t understand what he was thinking or why the rest of the world didn’t do more to stop him. I don’t think Iraq or Afghanistan will ever exist as peaceful countries in future.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
Some perspective for those who want it.
http://www.stumbleupon.com/s/#2jf6Y1/www.huffingtonpost.com/akmuckraker/nazis_b_266507.html/
Crap - One (Hitler) was saving his country/culture from whtever HE THOUGHT was wrong...
from Bush - others had to protect themselves.....
This recession was/is more worse than any World War....
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
I thought you a little smarter. Mein Kampf WAS WRITTEN BY ADOLF HITLER. This is a proven fact. Nothing good came out of that guy save the Autobahn and the VW Beetle. Reactionism is hardly justifiable. When s**t hits the fan, the easiest thing is to go to war...Bush and Hitler are in that respect, much the same of course.
Apparently, according to a recent encounter with an ex heavy boxing champion of Germany, in Torremolinos, Hitler was living happily in Bolivia until 1975!
And he swore blind he had evidence to prove it.
professional interest in art and believe me, these are not the work of a decent artist :-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
:)
if it worked that way we would hav to wait till he dies for some reason ppl would've elected him again
Nobody got rid of him lewis, he remained president for maximum time possible.
UkEng I dont think anyone is going to say bad things about THE Bush.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
We never got rid of him.. He could not be re-elected unike other countries..
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HE WHO DARES WINS
depends on which Bush we are talking about here.. Some people actaully like and enjoy Bush..:)
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HE WHO DARES WINS
the one we just got rid of
and the effects and the policy of business first and screw the ppl who voted for me
coz people are still suffering for him.
hitler, well, people were able to remove him.
bush, not at all. the policies are still there.
u never know
True.....
Hey US is not involved in North-South Korea Issue...
or are they ????
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
the bin ladin family is a famous and extremely rich family in ksa who own a contraction company
Yes he was or maybe is.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
B T W this is real fact...
Did you know Osama Bin Ladin is/was a Civil Engineer ???
Heard this from a reliable source....
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
not to my knowledge
Why ???
So that they can bring Osama Bin Ladin back in news....
HE n Bush were Good frens... You know tht rt ???
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Kazi - To search for the Humor in previous post...
Google IT....
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
so they also attacked the pentagon with another plane on the section that was just renewed with bullet proof glass and renforced concrete walls and all. that was gd planning atleast no one died in the pentagon
BUT Y??/
wat about the world trade centre i heard these mad rumors that the us was behind not osama
google it.
:)
know what? japan followed the blue print of attack that had been prepared by amercians....
surprsing, right?
google it.
Kazi - Pearl Harbor.... :)
They didn attack Pearl Harbor :)
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
where USA was not behind the scene, at least?
Exactly Ashwin, History is written by the conqueror, not the conquered so it will always portray a skewed view. Blaming Hitler alone for WW II is pretty naive, seeds of WW II were sown in Versailles in 1919, Such imbalance was created that something had to give sooner or later. Hitler had plenty of vices but also loads of virtues. BTW he didn’t drop atomic bombs in Japan either.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
I think it's actually gone over a million in Iraq hasn't it?
Moot point though. You really can't compare Hitler and Bush, not seriously anyway. If Bush were like Hitler he'd declare himself Chancellor and we'd still have to put up with him. As it is, he's been voted out. Good riddance.
Oh, for heaven's sake! WWII killed more than 20 million people. We don't have good numbers for Iraq but it could possibly be one to two hundred thousand. So tell me, is it a fair comparison?
Mandi
Qatary Lady - Hitler's Book - "Mein Khempf"
Why one should read this ???
Cause History is always written by those who won the war....
It is written by his enenmies....
For His point of view... for his side of the story... read him..... You ll see the reasons for his barbaric acts...
I am not justifying him... intentions where Right... Methods ..wrong...
Lewis - Thats Skill not all are born with :)
Like a Religichemist - One who can change everything into religious :)
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
it's weird how a post about hitler and bush turns into religion related forum
Jizya was for Non Muslims and Zakat for the Muslims
Thats the difference, and both went to help the populous itself.
The Jizya is a tax levied on non-Muslims in lieu of military service which is compulsory for Muslims but not for non-Muslims.
The amount of Jizya is much less than the Zakat, which is levied on Muslims only. The non-Muslims paying Jizya were exempt from compulsory military service (and were also entitled to many rebates in this regard) in a Muslim State but were entitled to full protection.
[img_assist|nid=96642|title=Prop|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=440|height=369]
birds of a feather flock together ;)
Hitler was a racist as long as it was in his interest to indoctrinate. He persecuted Slavic people in Poland and Russia, but not in Bulgaria and Croatia which crucially sided with him. These are blanket statements and assumptions. This of course does not stand in his favour, as it clearly explains his politicant logic and practice had little to do with consistency and integrity, meaning, he preached one thing, actively pursued something else.
QatariLady: The Mein Kampf is a drab collection of antiquated political axioms of tit-for-tat vengeance, and while he does raise some valid points (after all this was a man who wasn't stupid by any stretch of the imagination, he was completely insane), these are merely tools to push forth a brutal and deplorable set of ideals, typical of a scorned reactionary that the mouthy Austrian was... The only thing worthy of admiration about Germany in that period is the rigor, ingenuity and work ethic, which were sadly utilized for all the wrong purposes. And a certain amount of knightly officers who despite everything kept their conscience and humanity in the worst of circumstances, Oskar Schindlers and the like...
Fine comparisons you are trying to make, Islamic tyrannies of yesteryear (which by the way, any self-respecting scholar of Islamic jurisprudence will tell you were naught but woeful misuse of faith for personal/familial goals), or middle ages to be more precise, and the United States of America. You sir, are in the wrong field, on an Albanian tractor. A couple thousand clicks deep...Show me ONE country with a majority muslim population that collects tax from people of other faiths, please do so, as you have steered the conversation into some absurdist comparisons...
If you want to compare righteously, compare the Moors to their successors and the Spanish kingdom. I'm sure you know how benevolent their conquistadors were in central America :)
As for the Ottomans, you can plainly compare them to the multitude of feudal kingdoms of Europe of the time, all of which answered to the will of the Vatican.
Let me tell you also, that I, coming from regions of what once was that same Ottoman empire, have no love for them whatsoever. My people were subjugated to them for a good 400 or so years. But during that time, while not only monetary tax was collected but blood tax as well (the culling of young boys from non-muslim villages who would be sent to Istanbul to be trained as Janissaries, the Ottoman infantry elite), at the very least they didn't declare crusades on a whim and proclaim people as heathens whose flesh is legal game to the brave executors of the Pope, thereby wiping out entire peoples as they saw fit, whenever rulers of Papal design were not instated or the tax to Vatican left unpaid. The Ottomans were in effect, not much different from other European royals. Many an Ottoman vizier, bey, pasha, princess were of descent other than that of the Ottoman Turks. They had their ignoble practices and their instruments of repression, like any tyrannical empire of the time before democracy even existed as a far fetched idea...to be honest, for an empire to be truly Islamic, the people must approve their ruler (Caliph), if you do a little research, you will find out that ever since the first four righteous caliphs after Muhammad's passing, this fundamental rule has never been observed.
This was the ways of the feudal age of Europe and the Middle East. I am sure you know Christianity well enough to be aware of the fact that the Catholic church did not always act as prescribed by Scripture. Neither did the Muslim empires follow the orders of the Qur'an as much as they should or indeed could have...Great were the sins committed in the name of God, and greater will be committed too the way things are going. Such is the nature of man and that is an entirely different topic of discussion...
Popcorn..
Are you sure these are not the motives spread out by Zionist propaganda?
I'm tempted to read Hitler's book 'My Struggle'.
Exiledsaint, Who's the Mister? I most certainly am not male, and if you deducted your assumptions the same way you assumed I am male, thats just sad.
I never said anything about taxing minorities more?
I said quite the opposite, I said minorities are given welfare, wot are you on about? :/
I will not have people insulting Hitler this way...
Mister reason I am not going to respond whatever you say. You will never accept anyone else point of view no matter how logical...goodbye
Oh really mister reason? So if American treated muslims equal in the law but taxed them more than non-muslims you would be happy with that...
You have an argument that is indefensible except for the blind
Hitler was Genius... Excellent.... Only the motives were over normal.. or extremist level.
Bush is Dumb...
But true .. two extremes look similar....
Two kinda people drive Merc... One who owns... and other Who is hired to drive...
From outside.... both are driving a Merc :)
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
ExiledSaints "OK that is very good but what about the non-muslim tax that was in force in Moorish Spain and the Ottoman Empire
Maybe equal in the face of law but not in a financial sense so it makes sense to convert"
Yes there were taxes 'jiziah' but when the Islamic state was formed it included a meltingpot of minority jews that entighteled them to state welfare.
Contemporary states hardly treat their minorities with similar tollerance and support.
PG you should read this.
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bones.htm
You think of the people that joined in with him! They were either desperate or were just as bad, i.e the Japs. Some flew by his shirt tails or they had no choice. That does mean they agreed with him, they just had their own agenda.
Hitler was a cruel evil racist. The Bushes are/were just stupid and were driven by oil and they were/are bullies.
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The path to true happiness is paved with gin and tonics :-))))))
QatariLady: same motives. money. dominance. primarily money, dominance is only secondary, it's a necessary tool to secure the flow of money into the desired pockets...
popcorngirl: that's hardly true. what about Japs, Turks, Spaniards, Italians, the Vichy, Bulgarians, and many many others. They weren't Germanic, not by a long shot. Hitler pranced about with whoever agreed with him. If it wasn't for his woefully erroneous invasion of the USSR and ultimately, the involvement of a rather oblivious America, we'd all be singing different anthems today. Demonizing something for what it's not is false, as is romanticizing. Hitler was terrible and would have been terrible in the long run, but who's to know, that is just my opinion, I will admit zero powers of clairvoyance...
Hitler=kitsch painter=orator extraordinaire=socialist (we know how that party ends I'm afraid)=decent tactician=terrible strategist=vicious racist mass murderer=ultimately a failure in all respects.
W. Bush=moron=terrible tactician=appalling orator=no strategy whatsoever=miserable politician=woeful diplomat=ultimately a tool (in both senses of the word), and a crap one to boot.
You should compare Cheney and Hitler instead. H.W. Bush is another story altogether. That's the man draped in the chameleon cloak. Those that claim to understand his allegiances and agendas in truth know little next to nothing...
you's barking up the wrong lampposts there brudda...it's not the man, it's the policy. the man's gone, the policy is still there to a large extent...
Hitler too, compared to many of his aides he seemed like an angel. But media indoctrination is hard to shrug off...
are well documented. He had a deep hatred of anybody 'different' in his eyes. He wanted a super power; an Arian race. Homosexuals, retards, Jews, gypsies anybody he viewed as odd was eliminated. He thought he was a super power.
The latter is the only thing he had in common with the Bushes.
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The path to true happiness is paved with gin and tonics :-))))))
I don't see any similarity..They are just different kinds of killers!
We know Bush's motives but what are Hitler's motives to kill?
How little you know then about Germans following him. Not all Germans believed in what Hitler said and wanted. Hence why some tried to kill him.
Oil was not a factor then either.
Hitler was far worse than the Bushes. They were knee jerk reactionaries. Hitler was evil and mad.
I agree time/place/age has an argument; hence why really you cannot compare the two/three.
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The path to true happiness is paved with gin and tonics :-))))))
PM I thought that both the Hitler paintings you posted were decent, certainly not great, a bit bland and soulless paint by numbers type but I have seen many so called artists make it with less ability than his, I used to criticize how some of those half talented artists are treated as visionaries, but now I know that those people may have saved the world from world war 3 by becoming artists :) .
these greed/power and stupidity are called: Illuminatis...they all are following the conspiracy. and Hitler is a learner comapring to bush.
Times are different popcorngirl, the stupidity of Bush would have brought a world war too if it was done in early 20th century.
Just that Hitler for all his flaws was a great motivator, He was leading his men in wrong direction but all of them were behind him completely. I never got the feeling with Bush that all the Americans were 100 % behind him.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
Both could be seen as equal. Two were driven by greed/power and stupidity. One was driven by madness and bigotry.
All three not welcome in the world but only 1 caused a World War.
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Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)
Agreed popcorngirl..
I would prefer to sorround myself with evil people though rather than stupids.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
(both are) but they are not the same as Hitler.
Hitler was truly EVIL.
They were just stupid.
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Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)
OK that is very good but what about the non-muslim tax that was in force in Moorish Spain and the Ottoman Empire. Maybe equal in the face of law but not in a financial sense so it makes sense to convert....
Accurately stated PM thank you, and this is probably what enticed to to revert to Islam.
ExiledSaint , here is some lesser known facts about
THE COVENANT OF MEDINA
(The World's First Written Constitution)
After immigrating from Mecca to Medina, the Prophet Muhammad PBUH established a nation of equals based on the brotherhood between the Muslims in Medina and those from Mecca regardless of wealth or social status. The Muslims of Medina shared their wealth and homes with the immigrants from Mecca, who left their homes and possessions behind to escape from religious persecution.
Muhammad invited the Jews to join the new society as an independent nation, governed by rabbinical court, within the Muslim Nation. The Jews accepted and an agreement known as The Covenant of Medina was signed in 622 AD.
topic http://www.qatarliving.com/node/607089
Although i'm not sure about it being governed by a rabbinicial court
But I think the example set by the Prophet (saw) in which he didn't force Jews or Christians to convert is really what islam is about at it's heart. If only ... :-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
None used to make me convert or none made me convert. The 2nd part still holds: I hope to always avoid the sword :-D
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
But Muslims (and Christains) did conquere many lands and those people tend to follow the religion of the conquerers as it makes life easier....
I'll do my best to avoid any in the future :-D
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
PM, wise words, indeed you mean "No swords MADE me convert" =D
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
it was a British civil war :O (the revolutionary one, that is)
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
legal_pad "How many people died behind the conquest of Islam over the world for centuries and are not accounted for?
Everything is done in the name of God and sword."
Malaysia & Indonesia, No nasty Islamic sword involved, just pure Islamic Logic & common sence ;)
That propaganda is not only false but becoming rapidly blasé
PM dear, care to enlighten him about when you converted to Islam, were you by any chance threatened by swords? :/
The War of Independence was a civil war..... it was between British subjects....
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
because they were not wars between groups of American citizens (other than the Civil War between the States).
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Actually two civil wars were fought in America.... think about it...
One reminds me of the cover of Yellow Submarine -- lol
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
'IF HITLER HAD BEEN A HIPPY HOW HAPPY WOULD WE BE'
"When the artists Jake and Dinos Chapman bought a series of paintings by Adolf Hitler for £115,000, many questioned the morality of paying for works produced by one of history's most brutal dictators.
Yesterday, the brothers unveiled 13 of the watercolours, on which they had added psychedelic rainbows, stars and love hearts, and placed them back on the market for £685,000.
The Chapmans denied that the paintings, which are selling as a single work, sought to "redeem" Hitler, and classed the original watercolours as "bland" and lacking in talent. "The idea of redeeming Hitler is bad, the idea of redeeming his work is a staggering work of genius," said Jake.
He hoped the defacement of Hitler's work, which includes landscapes, vistas of Roman ruins and still life, which the dictator painted when he was young, would have him "spinning". The changes they had added meant it was no longer Hitler's work, he added.
"If hell exists and Hitler exists in it, he would be spinning if he saw these. It's not his work any more. It's our work," he said.
Following concerns that the work could be bought by Nazi sympathisers, White Cube Gallery in London, where it is showing, has stated that it will be extremely careful about who it sells to.
Dinos Chapman said the work, entitled If Hitler had been a Hippy How Happy Would We Be, was a rumination of what might have been had Hitler not been refused entry to Vienna's art school. He added they showed a "blankness" rather than any hint of the deadly pathology that he would later demonstrate.
"He tried to get into art school with these. They are bland and show no presentiment of the genocide to come. They represent the husk of a man who would be filled up with bitterness and hatred. They are identical to thousands of drawings in junk shops. All they demonstrate is that they are a terrible work of art, not that the person behind them will become a tyrant," he said."
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art/news/the-art-of-adolf-hitler-with-a-little-help-from-the-chapman-brothers-836755.html
An example here:
http://www.artnewsblog.com/2008/05/adolf-hitler-and-chapman-brothers.htm
I liked the idea.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
agreed
ALLAH HU AKBAR - GOD IS GREAT
In mein kampf he gave the impression he was a pretty decent painter. I thought he told the truth about that..
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
"legitimate" but he was just so bad they wouldn't let him in. If they had, maybe he would have spared the history of art all those bad "Aryan" works installed in the Haus der deutschen Kunst. lol
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
There was only ONE civil war in the USA. But indeed estimates put the number of dead at over 9,000,000. Imagine! Just remember we were only killing ourselves :-P
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
he was one of those painters sitting on the pavement
Perhaps if he had been accepted into art school he would have stayed out of politics. :-P
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
"Osama = Ahhhhhhhmed "
You offended our Admin! YOU will be banned ! :P
Yawwwn !
wat about the ppl who died in the crusades and the american civil wars
Hitler was a brilliant tactician and great leader. He just got too carried away in his Aryan supremacy theory. Ofcourse he made that fatal mistake of attacking Russia at that point of time. Just my opinion.
Bush is just an idiot.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
How many people died behind the conquest of Islam over the world for centuries and are not accounted for?
Everything is done in the name of God and sword.
Graduated from Xavier Institute for Higher learning.
hitler was a painter try 2 imagine the scene
what a TWONK!!!!
Read that anyway you wish.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Hitler only had one testicle, whereas Bush just talked bollocks
No, Hitler was a somewhat smart tactician and economist.
Ok which Bush are we talking about the junior or the senior Bush or is it Deb Bush.. There are so many Bush's but only one famous Hitler..:)
-----------------
HE WHO DARES WINS
agreeing with you?
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
a huge number of lives have been ended by him maybe without destroying a continent, and he's a theif, and a coward somehow
don't be silly.
Russians....
probably true