Woman in 'Burqini' denied entry to swim.
A muslim woman was forbidden to swim in a local swimming pool in France because she was wearing a burqini (a bathing suit that covers from head to toe).
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/849287/paris-pool-bans-burqini-swimsuit
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/6017524/French-b...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090812/ap_on_re_eu/eu_france_burquini_banned
Now I can imagine the religious backlash this is going to cause. However, I think people should be aware that local swimming pools have always had a rule that forbids excess clothing when swimming in the water for hygienic reasons. I don't believe the woman was forbidden because she was a Muslim, but merely to enforce a long standing rule that everyone has to abide by.
Discuss!
I take it then judging by your comment that you have ABSOLUTELY no objection whatsoever to the law that is enforced in Qatar during the month of Ramadan regarding public eating...it's the same for muslims and non-muslims alike so nothing to object here right ;)
Laws get amended, all the time. In fact, France is about to establish a new law that bans the burqa altogether! As I have previously stated I do not care about the burqa at all. No one I know wears it, and whether it is illegal somewhere is irrelevant to me. But the "liberal, human rights championing" French have proven their true nature in their handling of the affair.
@Stone Cold: You have seen the gods in heaven? Even their swimming pool! Praise the lord, a prophet is among us!
I don't understand how burqini is against the law. first of all burqini is a swimwear, not an abaya or burqa. It is simply a one peice swim-suit with the full arms and legs, same as the UV protected swim gear we buy for our children. My children wear full arm and leg swimsuits to protect them from sun, does that mean they no longer can use the swimming pool???
As far as the reason behind not wearing regular clothes in swimming pools is that the lint from these cloth causes problem with the pool's filter, but as long as u are wearing something made with swim suit material, there is no problem. I have seen many ladies in Canada wearing diffrent shape and sized of full body swim suits including pants, skirts, long shirts, enjoying the pool without any problem.
I just find it funny, there is no law for showing too much skin, but there is law on covering it. I bet it was a men who made that law! Find it very funny that modesty is against the law....
havent we discussed this before
http://www.qatarliving.com/discussion/swimwear-for-muslim-women-15jan2007
Even the Gods in heaven does not wears Burqini in swimming pool.
Or she could do exactly what she's doing which is bring it to the courts.
In this case,the woman's religious obligation goes against a law that is in place,for the general public(as it is a community pool in question here.) IRRESPECTIVE of religion...it's not their issue if it's her religious obligation or not,it goes against the law,the law doesn't allow her to practice her religious obligation?...well then like she said herself,she should reconsider living in that country...what country it is again is irrespective,it's the principle of the issue...
Imagine a black burqa floating like a jelly fish in a swimming pool. Theres always a kind of dresses for different type occassions and activities. Its as simple as 123.
Well in the words of the daily show. "If you create a melting pot you have to expect the stew to get darker."
Guys should respect the country rules.
And I agree that distinct religious symbols do not have a place in government offices, educational institutions, etc. Those things belong in places of worship. The problem is when you infringe on someone's religious obligation. Whether it's a yamaka or a burqa, the end effect is the same. Those people are not wearing such items as a symbol or show of faith, they are obliged to. However I will agree it is only the Hejab that is compulsory to Muslim women as we all know, and the burqa...well I'll leave the reasoning behind it to people who understand it better.
Turkey for example, after Ataturk (Mustafa Kemal) was a strictly secular country. I don't know what has changed since more religious parties came to power but I do remember the Hejab (headscarf) being banned in state universities over there.
crapcircle,if anything i'm denouncing the French leaders along with those of the rest of Europe for being hypocritical...clearly,you've not read/understood my post before commenting...they are,as you correctly mentioned a secular country more constitutionally than actually,Christian secular is more like it,but also,they don't allow ANY religious symbolism,be it the Crucifix,or the Jewish hat or the burkini,how hard is that to understand??...
So maybe their motto is 'Liberty, Equality, Fraternity... as long as you are not conservative Muslims' ;-)
well, this had to make it in here =)
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Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
I haven't seen where has mr. gadarene been proclaimed a French official. France is still a secular country (constitutionally) with a very large percentage of atheists and agnostics. The French government is legally prohibited from recognizing any religion, it only recognizes religious organizations.
That is why their motto, "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" is increasingly suspect. Seems like it's a motto that applies to everyone except one particular group.
we are both saying essentially the same thing... that most of Europe have come to terms with the fact that they are not secular... that they are Christian countries... Thank Lord for that... I'll bookmark this thread cos this is a watershed in many ways...
Earlier, Muslim countries were being seen as draconian for imposing a Muslim way of life... and they were portrayed as primitive for not allowing nonIslamic practices to prevail
Whereas when Muslims were not being allowed to practice their faith in the West, the reason was attributed to higher morals human rights, freedom of expression, feminism etc... now you are saying it more like it is... a Muslim is not allowed to do A, B or C which consitutes the Muslim faith bcos we are Christians and we are not comfortable with Muslims who exercise their faith... so that makes France for instance which perceived the Burqah negatively as draconian as Saudi for instance which insists on a Burqah
Now if these European countries can come to terms with the fact that they are not secular... and that their view of the world is tinted with a Christian perspective, then the hypocrisy that they've been living with can finally be put to rest and we can make real progress towards understanding one another and trying to reach common ground...
Let her swim!
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A wise young crackpot knows no fear - Ian Dury.
In Middle Eastern countries, covering up is the norm. In some parts of Europe, being naked or almost naked at the pool is the norm. Its a cultural thing, so definitely not shocking if a burqini not allowed in their pools. It'll be to scary for the kids, maybe....
*Bunga*
gypsy,a burkini is a symbol...of the religious restrictions(supposedly)imposed by Islam & the very design of the thing(by a lebanese woman in Oz if i'm not mistaken) came about so that muslim women could swim while not,apparently,going against their religion...of course it's a religious symbol,not 'simply a style of swimsuit'...of course she has the right to question that or any law for that matter but again,questioning the law merely because it's the law isn't the issue here...the burkini like the burka makes her stand out/different from everyone else around & it's not a nice/happy stand out/different,it makes people uneasy,it conjures up images(thanks to the media potrayal) of an eventual 'muslim takeover' of the french way of life & while i don't think that's going to happen,i don't blame a lot of the french people for thinking that it will...& like i said earlier, france,like other European countries is a Christian/Catholic one but they are,like the rest too afraid/too hypocritical to admit it & now would probably be the worst time to do so...what they essentially want to say is,"practice your religion/beliefs in the privacy of your home/your place of worship. Don't make a show of it elsewhere,like @ a community swimming pool,INTEGRATE,like everyone else,your religion doesn't allow it?,feel free to move to a part of the world where it's ok to practice it,'cos we sure as hell don't want you making us change our way of life to suit your religious beliefs"...but of course,Sarkozy sure as hell couldn't come out & say that even if he's thinking it could he?...
i think its fair for swimming pool operators to prescribe a dress code
its up to the swimmer whether he or she wants to use the pool... if the dress code is not okay... don't use the swimming pool
or have a strict ladies only time
and besides there are many options...
go to the beach
or like me and my wife did, go to a resort with private swimming pools for each villa... cost a fortune but it was fantastic at Taj Kumarakom... incredible experience
gypsy i think that in france they have realised that if u bend over backwards a bit too much,u eventually break your back..
http://www.qatarliving.com/node/461019
Salam
Nothing anti-Islamic surprises me coming from France, they've singled muslims out a long time ago and are not going to stop until they make life for muslims over there impossible. Hopefully next elections their people opt to vote out that closet fascist president of theirs, but the right wing has Europe by the nuts for a while now...
Also, especially in France, the "secular" nature of the government has always been uneasy. It is a highly Catholic country after all.
A burkini isn't a religious symbol. It's simply a style of swimsuit. She's questioning the law that says she's not allowed to wear it in the pool. She has that right.
gypsy,correct me if i'm wrong but France,since it is the country under discussion here,has a rule in it's constitution which clearly states separation of religion(it actually states church but again,back then when it was written Christianity was the only religion they were concerned with) & state,which is why NO religious symbols are allowed,when a person takes the oath of citizenship,they are aware that this is a constitutional law & they take an oath to abide by what's laid down in the said constitution & anyways,the woman in question is a white/caucassian French woman who's converted to Islam NOT an immigrant who's been granted citizenship...questioning a law just because it's a law & shouldn't be blindly followed,etc is all well & good but that is not the issue here...
"I dont think they would take too nicely to someone telling them they need to follow the rules to the T over here" and I said we are told that ALL THE TIME. Now the fact that Qatar doesn't publicize clearly what the rules are and the fact that strict shariah is not applied in Qatar is not a problem the expats have anything to do with.
My employer takes great pains to advise everyone of the conservative nature of the culture and I bet Qatar has very few problems with us. But if Qataris want to play some kind of childish tit for tat game and take their offense to France's actions out on everyone here, then Qatar will be a far less appealing place to be (which means Qataris will need to figure out a new way to fulfill their employment needs).
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
not really & you know it. If Qatar really follows sharia law,more strict rules would have been enforced.
What is really sad, with such news coming from France & elsewhere. More locals will demand that dress code laws are applied.
and if we don't like something and express an opposing opinion, we are told to leave.
Your post has no leg to stand on.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Yeah thats all well an good but its a shame they "foreigners" don't fall in line with what is required in an Islamic country... they still come here and wanna wear their shorts, skimpy tops and so.. and on top of it have the cheek to say the Middle East is a backward region....
Whats good for the goose is good for the gander... I dont think they would take too nicely to someone telling them they need to follow the rules to the T over here...
wet-suit type suits be a problem in the US with pools that had strict clothing rules, and the wearers of said suits were not Muslim women but WASP girls (they were a fad for a while) so religion had nothing to do with it.
I am inclined to agree with MissX. Agree or disagree, it is, in their opinion, a health issue, not a religious one. The task of this woman will be to prove to authorities that the suit required by her religion does not violate the health code, not that her clothes should be exempt from the health code on religious grounds.
And I think the days of easy immigration to the West are over.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
No I think this was a race issue. France is no better then Saudi when it comes to the rights of their people, they are and always have enforced a "if you aren't one of us you don't belong" it seeps from their pores. But hey, this might be my own personal issues with the French.
Garadene I don't think anyone in the international community has ever said that what Saudi does is ok, unfortunately no body in Saudi can change the system, they can't vote, they can't protest, they can't do a thing. They can in France and as a citizen she's exercising that right. If you don't want immigrants to have say in your political system DON'T give them citizenship. Citizens have a right to influence the politics of the nation and they don't have to "go with the flow" or even agree with the majority.
BTW people, swimming pools in Qatar also seem to ban Burqinis & wetsuits. Memories are short.
http://www.qatarliving.com/node/461019
Of course I didn't read through all the comments, but why a Burkini? The whole idea of the hijab is to wear loose clothing when around the opposite sex, a Burkini? Wouldn't anything be leather tight on your body after coming out of the water? There are private pools - or if not, then have it as a jihad against your wishes and enjoy the bath tub.
Just my simple opinion.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
its an administrative, logistical issue...
when you have a lady in a burqini in the pool... it sends out the message that any kind of dressing is okay and it makes it difficult for the pool authorities to enforce rules... every time a patron says look at what she's wearing they can't drag her out of the pool and show that its swim material...
Anyway, this is too much hassle over a trivial issue...
last comment on this thread...
I agree fully that the word secular is severely misused,again,that's being PC @ it's height...gypsy,i wrongly assumed that speech was made by Kevin Rudd but whoever made it isn't the point here...point is,these countries were FOUNDED by CHRISTIANS,based on CHRISTIAN beliefs...immigrants came MUCH MUCH LATER...& when i say immigrants,i don't mean white/caucassian. Australia is a country made up of immigrants,correct but who were the 1st immigrants? Yes,they wrongly took over land that belonged to the Aborigines but that isn't the point here...unless you're claiming that the people sentenced in the UK those hundreds of years ago to serve time in Australia for stealing a chicken or fighting with their neighbours were not white & only white??...so to repeat myself i fully agree that these leaders are being complete hypocrites when they say "secular nation"...they're not in reality,everyone knows it,it's not like it's a big secret,it's just that currently,there are too many non-Christian immigrants who are part of the system/are citizens who would feel alienated if these leaders were to suddenly change tone & say "no we're not secular,we are a Christian nation"...the backlash would be severe to say the least but that doesn't change the facts now does it?...Saudi expects all women to cover up,France says they can't,why is it ok for Saudi while such a big fuss is made when France is doing the reverse?...same applies here,huge hullaballo being made about "scantily clad expat women"...they expect women to cover from head to toe in this damn oppressive heat,that's fine but in turn,if France says,no burqa or no burquini,that's an infringement of women's rights is it?...what about women's rights in Saudi or the rest of the GCC?...can't get a bloody bite to eat for a whole month,why? "oh this is a Muslim country,we must respect their rules & religion & culture"...well take that same philosophy & reverse it,simple...same rules must apply,that's all i'm saying...
too busy ..
lol I have absolutely no idea why it's a hygiene issue. But I know public swimming pools have that as a guideline for hygiene reasons, I didn't just make that up. I also don't agree with banning someone for swimming for wearing a Burqini, but I think the media turned this into an Islamic issue, when it may have far less sinister reasons. Like I said before, my father, as a swimming pool manager has asked many people to get out of the water for wearing bathing suits that had too much material (and I believe even wet suits), and not one of them was Muslim. I am trying to explain that there are reasons why people do things, and that may not necessarily be politically/religiously motivated.
does adapt to a point, but Canada is mature enough, and has its own culture now....
You have to live in a place like Surrey BC to see some of the stuff thats going on...
and there has just been a rash of "Homour Killings" and people are really double thinking because of this,,,I mean, an immigrant family moves in down the street with a bunch of kids, and their 15 year old daughter hangs around with yours, and a year later her father and brothers slit her throat because she is leaving the old ways?? I mean, c'mon!
Burkinis are made of swim suit material Versi, it's no different then a wet suit. And yes mmyke Canada needs to adapt to immigrants, and it does (and is doing a pretty damned good job).
yep... its not really a covering issue... its to do with the material that she is wearing and it being loose fitting
I can see the problem it poses... the next day the boys would want to jump in to the pool with their bermudas and the girls with their skirts...
i guess they have a right to demand that people should wear clothing made of a certain type of material...
Canada must adapt????
silly..........
They didnt permit me in ma safari suite , then why her. whts the big deal?
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- Listen to Many...Speak to a Few -
I think that we all know the real reasons behind the ban and to argue otherwise would just lead to repetition of the same old arguments.
See you in another thread...:O)
I've swam in a lot of pools, both indoor and outdoor MissX and I've never heard of loose clothing causing hygiene problems...Now the peeing in the pool....That's another story.
What on earth is that about Miss X? How can a burqini not be hygienic?
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
No, I do mean excessive material as a Burqini. Apparently it's a hygiene thing.
Like I said above, my father has been a swimming pool manager for over 30 years, and I have seen him on numerous occasions ask people to get out of the water if they are swimming in non-approved swim wear for public swimming pools. I believe (although am not 100% sure) that wet suits are also not allowed during hours that the pools are open to the public.
"Indoor pools have stricter dress codes than outdoor pools: in outdoor pools, men are often allowed to wear t-shirts for modesty or for protection from sunburn, but in indoor pools they must usually go shirtless. At beaches, many people swim with clothes on and wear beachwear, but at pools (especially indoor pools) more minimal attire is often worn, such as lycra briefs for men or lycra one-piece tanksuits for women. Swimming with clothes on often results in objections from lifeguards at pools, especially indoor pools. In France, board shorts are usually not allowed for hygiene reasons"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swimming_pool
Their country, Yes! But a country with the motto :
Liberté, égalité, fraternité
..
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- Listen to Many...Speak to a Few -
lol
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
I agree Versi, if they want to be secular they must be truly secular. Too many Western countries call themselves secular but then (for example W. Bush) use the power of the Church to their own end. The French aren't much better.
as long as they stop calling themselves secular...
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
All these years, Europe was trying to appear secular by claiming all religions to be exercised
But i guess now they've come to terms with the fact that as much as they'd like to be politically correct... Islam is not as easy for them to handle so they'd rather let go of the pretending... that's what I meant when I said.. they are 'Christian secular'
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
So ready to attack me you didn't even read! lol
Pathetic.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
You forget ...
"I will bend like a reed in the wind."
That was quick ! no one saw that ! :-P
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"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
-Mahatma Gandhi..
rMs..!!
Apparently monkeys can't be taught to read -- just HTML.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Speed she's a French citizen and therefore has the right and the privilege to stand up for what she sees as unjust. Not all rules should be respected. If we respected every rule just because it was a rule men in the UK would still have to wear their short swords around town and women would have to cover their ankles. Rules are meant to be constantly assessed and reassessed. More power to this woman.
wrong post
Not all French beaches are for nude sunbathers.
But I do find your take on this interesting. That would mean that all Muslims who believe they are required to dress a certain way, leave countries where that is not the dominant fashion. It's an interesting idea but doesn't bear up under the laws protecting freedom of religion in the West.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Garadene that speech is a crock, it's been passed off as a speech from about 30 different MP's from 30 different countries. Australia, like Canada & the US CANNOT talk about immigrants adapting, we're immigrant nations, it's up to us to adapt, our future depends on it.
Makes me think of one of my favorite songs:
"buildings and bridges
are made to bend in the wind
to withstand the world,
that's what it takes
all that steel and stone
are no match for the air, my friend
what doesn't bend breaks"
Ani Difranco.
their pools... their rules...
Its not to do with the islamic swimwear
their restriction is to do with excessive clothing which is logical
whatever makes them happy...
besides who said France is a secular state...
you call a state that funds churches but refuses to fund mosques secular?
they are 'Christian Secular' :-p
And this man was elected PM? Wow! Australia's own version of Bush.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
want people (regardless religion) to wear burkini, one should respect their rules.
Similarly, In Saudi and Iran western women are not allowed to enter without covering their bodies because they are strict Muslim Countries.
Same goes to France, their society is open and they don't mind if a man or a woman walk Naked on their beaches.
I don't see any racial issue here! I may be wrong but this is what I feel.
@ britexpat LOL!! :)...This brings to mind something Australian PM Kevin Rudd said sometime back...
"IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. '
'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'
'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'
'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'
'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'
'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'
'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."...
The rest of the western world leaders esp. Mr. Brown should quit being PC & come out & call a spade exactly that...God knows they're thinking it...
i agree fully with speed.. need to abide by rules on where we stand...
Speed, she is French! It is her country, and she has every right to go to the pool, no matter anything. Again, with the right kind of fabric, why should this be a problem?
It sickens me more to see the ladies at the club (in Doha), out in the heat, watching their husbands and sons have a good time at the cool pool, while they are just sitting outside.
the Burqini (a brandname of a swimsuit by an Australian woman) is NOT excessive clothing. It is made of swimsuit material and fits closely and securely to the body with no loose, trailing pieces of material.
That said, if a pool has a rule that everyone must expose a certain amount of their skin, then she was violating it. However, that would surprise me since Western countries rarely implement fashion restrictions like that.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Well, they let her swim like that in July.
It is also her right to wear how much fabric she wants to wear, as long as it is made of the same material as the bikinis and swimsuits. There are shirts that kids use with LONG SLEEVES that protect them from the sun, there are even diapers they can use in the pool. How come she can't wear an extra bit of the right fabric?
Gadarene, if everyone thought like you, this would be a very, VERY lonely and boring world. We are all different and demand different things and think differently. It is called "tolerance". There has to be a respect for everyones right to use a pool, no matter their religion. I'm sorry, I'd rather let that lady go for a swim, that a nasty, old fart in his 60's wearing speedos that are so tight you can see things you'd rather not see at all.
hehe
If you seriously believe that she was banned because of "excess clothing", then I have a historical bridge for sale at very reasonable price.
I've seen lots of women around here in the burkini and it's no more "loose clothing" then the full body suits a lot of swimmers wear in the Olympics. Frankly I think this was a racial issue and the woman has every right to cause a fuss.
full right to implement such rules.
If you don't like it don't go... no one is forcing them!
I'm a 100% with the French on this one,why should any community,irrespective of which community it is,get special privileges...the rules are the same for everyone...her religion doesn't allow it?...let her build her own pool & swim in it...i mean come on,enough is enough...
My father has been a swimming pool manager for over 30 years. He has many times asked people who are wearing excessive clothing to leave the water, and couldn't give a crap if they are Muslim, Atheist, Pink, Purple, or 2 Headed. A rule is a rule. Question the rule to the people who make the rules, not the ones who enforce it.
more to it than that.
oh I completely agree.
I was just commenting on the fact that this was probably just a case of an employee just doing what he has been told, to not let people swim who are wearing a lot of material without knowing anything about the woman or the material it is made of. However, the media has made it into a some kind of anti-islamic event.
but having a burkini myself, I know that is not the case.
I am not saying it was political, but that wearing a proper burkini shouldn't be an issue to prevent someone from swimming.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
I think this situation was merely an employee following rules, that people wearing a lot of material are not allowed into the water. There would have been no political agenda at the time she was asked not to swim. It has only become one in hindsight.
The ones designed and marketed by ahiida are made for professional use on swim teams. There is not excess loose fabric and they are made of swimsuit material so they don't get waterlogged.
I don't see why a woman should not be allowed to wear one.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
that this is not about the fact that this woman wore a full covering swimsuit into a pool.
Man, she looks like a black sperm from Woodie Allen's "Everything You Wanted To Know About Sex But Were Afraid To Ask?"
u can wear them! all the hotel beaches allow them, if u go out on a boat u can wear them... maybe the public beaches u cant but most u can....
and other clothes are being strictly monitored, if one believes the threads on here over the past while...correct?
From my understanding you can wear a bikini anywhere where swimming is allowed, however the level of disapproval differs depending on where you are.
you can't wear a bikini in Qatar, can you?