Meso - like PM said, and i criticse chrisitans as well for this, who blindly try to convert people based on your book.
Instead show me the positives of your religion, telling me ill go to hell is not going to convince me or bogus reported science. When i look at chrisitanity, i see the Red cross (which had to be changed to red crescent - stupidity)
I read an interesting article in gulf times i think it was about a muslims travels around the world, i have been tring to find it. He said - "when I was in Europe I didn't see many Muslims but I saw 'Islam' (e.g charites/welfare state/community groups etc), But when I am in the Gulf I see many Muslims but not 'Islam' (e.g grotesque wealth, treatment of labour etc)"
Whoever keeps posting the athiest and the scholar - stop lol. So if I throw 500 muslims and 500 athiests off a building who will survive?
"so how come if the Koran foretold all the scientific inventions, how come no muslims invented anything from it?…"
A good and legitimate question.
1- The Muslims were the masters of knowledge and science in almost every field when they were committed to Islam. They excelled in mathematics, astronomy, medicine, philosophy, literature, geometry, etc, when Europe was living in the sheer darkness of the middle ages. If you read about the history of the Islamic civilization you will come to know that the icons from whom the light of knowledge spread to Europe and elsewhere were Muslims, like: Alhazen, Avicenna, Averroes …………etc.
Kindly check this list of Muslim scientists and see their achievements.
http://www.ummah.net/history/scholars/
As an indication of the Islamic contribution to the world’s civilization, tens of the words you know now as part of you language are from Arabic origin, like: cotton, alcohol, alchemy, almanac, astrolabe, algorithm, algebra, etc.
Kindly check this link to see how many Arabic words have been taken from Arabic:
As for now, the Muslim world has become dependant on the US and Europe because they eliminated their religion from their life and lost both their religious and worldly prestige. There are other factors for this backwardness, social, economic, political, etc. which need books to cover.
2- Allah Almighty in His infinite Wisdom decreed that the disbelievers themselves discover the scientific phenomena referred to in the Quran to show them the indications of His Omnipotence and Greatness because they need such proofs to have faith in Allah.
Kindly read this Quranic verse for example:
“Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?” 21:30
Apart from the 2 scientific references this Quranic verse includes (the Bing Bang and that water is the origin of all living things), it makes reference to the non believers who came later on to discover those scientific findings.
Sorry but neither Freud's nor Darwin's theories are insignificaant or not well known.
Your statements bring to the fore that you appear to be not well versed in either of these areas which would cast doubt on your "facts" concerning your recent postings.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it makes your postings less credible or "authoritative" than you might like us to view them - however as Darwin is pretty much the supposed "authority" on evolution in the Western world, your version as presented here has less credibility.
However, perhaps you can point to the specific parts of the Holy Quran and Hadiths that contradict two other points of view that were espoused 1200 years later?
I am sorry. It is just a slip of the “pen” because they are both in my mind whenever I remember the fallacies which are magnified and made popular. It doesn't require one to be a genius to know the difference between the two, but as one might do a slip of the tongue, one might similarly do a slip of the "pen".
One might tell someone else: “go straight and then turn left, meaning “right” or: “good morning, meaning “good evening”. Does this mean that he/she doesn’t know the difference between right and left/ morning and evening?
I don’t claim deep knowledge of anything, but I don’t thing knowing the difference between Darwin and his theory and Freud and his theory needs that prowess.
So, dear PM, this doesn’t mean that I am “not knowledgeable about Freud or Darwin” and science altogether.
When we say that science proves the divinity and authenticity of the Quran, we mean the scientific facts and not theories and speculations. Thus, one can not rely on Freud’s theory of evolution, which is shun by scientists themselves, to prove of refute something mentioned in the Quran. One can check the credibility of the Quran using the scientific facts which are beyond doubt. Just as examples, kindly consider the following scientific fields which the Quran referred to more than 1400 years ago:
1- the creation of the heavens and the earth
2- Astronomy
3- the expansion of the universe
4- the conquest of space
5- the conquest of space
6- the mountains
7- the effects of high altitude
8- the origin of life on earth
9- Reproduction in the vegetable kingdom
10- the Animal kingdom
11- formation of milk
12- human reproduction
13- spherical shape of the earth
14- the seven layers of the earth
15- the formation of clouds
16- source of iron
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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In spite of all this conformity between the Quran and science, some friends say: "no, such things are not proofs of the credibility of the Quran!!!!"
Thank you for the recommendation..I shall stop here and later post a new thread devoting to prove God exists...
Truthful visitor...Quran did not foretold all scientific inventions..
the list you see was stated in quran...Quran gives some phenomenons and does not go into details..
hint: Islam & christianity & Judaism have many things in common...
Islam was brought to people through one man only....this man does not know how to read or write...How would he tell so many things about christianity and Judaism if it was not from God?
You’re sincere and passionate about "your mission". I’m not pulling the plug here, but I wouldn't go there. You’re not intending to tackle rules or laws within a given faith, you’re up against those who don’t have any, in terms of God and Creation.
They’ll wear your patience thin and will challenge your sensible faculties.
If you insist, start a new thread of your own, in the Muslim Group, and remember you cannot always guide those you love.
The Qur'an cannot predict it either "how many times you will pronounce the letter 'H'".
And you still do not understand me at all: I don't believe, not even in science. I don't have to believe. I either know, or I don't know, but that is not a reason to begin believing! It would not solve any problems, just 'lulls' them away. But they are still there. So, I'd rather continue to find out. Even if it takes me another 13 billion years. And I am far from seeking "the truth". Unlike you. There is your truth, and there is somebody else's truth, and each is as good or bad as the other one. I don't need that either. The "truth" is totally uninteresting for science. "Truth" is an opinion. Science models the universe. And if the model works, it's okay, but far from whichever truth. If you mis-use science to prove your "truth" you are making a mistake. Science cannot provide truth! So, stop saying science "proves" this or that from any religion. It doesn't, it doesn't want to, it's not made for this. You are violating my feelings as a scientist if you try to prove religious issues with science. You rape science, you violate the laws of science. But I can overlook it, because you certainly do not think scientifically. So, have a nice sleep.
Do you believe everything can be explained by physics and mathematics?
We need to be careful on the tools we use and to what they apply and how they should be applied.
Given the great advance in science, it fails to do so many things. Example, modern science fails to predict how many times you will pronounce the letter 'H' for example in the coming week. do you believe science can tell? do we need to know?
Maybe you didn't get it: Aristotle said, if 1 is 1 then it can't be 2 at the same time. Modern physics on the contrary says, if 1 is 1 it sometimes is 1.2 or even 2, it depends on the person who is viewing it, what his mass and velocity are and which question he asks. Sounds like Rumsfeld again?
1- The size of the universe is a matter of difference among the scholars. There is no fixed number of years unanimously agreed upon. The different numbers mentioned are estimations. If you check Wikipedia for example you will read: "...the diameter of the observable Universe is at least 93 billion light years.." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe
2- You overlooked the crux of the post and stuck to a secondary thing which does never change any thing of topic. If the scientist differ among themselves on the exact size of the universe, can you and I agree on it?
3- I wrote nothing of the post from my own mind, I just copied the whole stuff from a website where I found the story for our friend CuriousButDetermined, and I cited the source at the end of the post.
3- The purpose of the whole text was the story of the scholar and the atheist, which I copied to CuriousButDetermined coz i promised him to do so. That is why I put a line just beneath the last line of the story, for the rest is just an optional complement.
4- Let us suppose that the exact size of the universe is only 7 billion light years, not even 13, will that underestimate the greatness of the Creator or mean that this great universe came to being by chance, which is the purpose behind the whole topic?
"I think by wise reasoning and friendly dialogue based on logic, solid proofs, with objective and truth-oriented search, everything can be changed. We just need reliance on Allah and trust in His help."
Wise words mesoptania
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
well said magicdragon - you either believe or you don't. This smacks of the religious "right" in North America using the bible to "prove" things, whether it be embryology or the scientific correctness of anything. Faith is faith, that's when you believe in things that cannot be proven logically or scientifically or mathematically - that's the definition of faith.
For example, I believe in the love and support of my family and friends - can I point to specific instances when this has happened? Yes. Can I "prove" it will happen again? No. But I believe it will so long as I do not disappoint them - that's my end of the equation.
Those who continuously seek to "prove" they are "right" are only demonstrating their own insecurities in their faith.
"Remember, the number 30 billion light years away only current estimation since the strongest telescope today only could reach 15 billion light years away."
Nonsense. Light has a finite speed, nothing can travel faster. There are only 13 billion years past. So, the universe cannot be bigger than 13 billion light years. It has nothing to do with the "strongest" telescopes. They can see farther than that. There is nothing to see beyond 13 billion lightyears distance, because there wasn't anything 13 billion years ago. But if you believe what you said, then there is nothing I can do.
"based on logic, solid proofs", excellent assumption, especially when it comes to religion. There is nothing to prove. You either believe or you don't!
I think by wise reasoning and friendly dialogue based on logic, solid proofs, with objective and truth-oriented search, everything can be changed. We just need reliance on Allah and trust in His help.
Unfortunately there will always be those who commit atrocities in the name of religion and those who judge religions based on that. That's never going to change.
And just to be clear, I'm talking about all religions here, not one in particular.
"But when the followers of a religion start committing atrocities and use their religion as the reason, people are inevitably (and perhaps justifiably) going to judge the religion based on these followers."
In this case both are wrong: those who commit such atrocities and who base their judgment on them.
Unless we avoid judging by actions of some of the followers, all religions will be misjudged and avoided because bad followers and "negative representatives" are there in all religions. I suppose I don't need to give examples to make you agree with me, do I?
having to PROVE that their religion is the true one? Seems to be quite an insecurity to me. True faith is one that believes and follows and doesn't have to be "proven".
If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the main difference between a dog and man.
"But unfortunately not everyone does it that way, and it's these Muslims who alienate Islam and create a bad name for the rest of you."
Yes dear friend, this is unfortunately true. The problem is that there is a wide schism between the Practical and Theoretical Islam. There are many reasons for this, among them is that there is no real Islamic leadership in power to lead the Muslim communities. The Muslim ruler is vital for he is the role model to be followed and the power to amend the mistakes and adjust the behaviour. If you have a look at the Islamic history, you will find that when Muslims were united in a well-led state, with the rulers being real embodiment of the teachings, they dominated a vast area of the world within a short period.
If you excuse me to give you just 3 examples of the practical Islam and how it attracts other to it (I will copy the first two examples with some linguistic corrections from: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/59867-what-do-you-feel-wrong-islam-51.html):
1- Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, had a Jewish neighbour who used to throw rubbish and dirt in front of the Prophet's house, as a sign for hatred. Every time the man threw the dirt, the Prophet just removed them...Until a day came when the Prophet didn't see any rubbish outside his door..
He asked the neighbourhood about the Jewish man, and they told him he was sick...
The prophet simply went to his house to check him out!
2- When Prophet Muhammad, peace be be upon him, recaptured Makkah, he just forgave every person there...These people killed many Muslims before, enslaved many others, and hurt the prophet a lot in the past...and he just forgave them!
Through out the Islamic history, Jews and Christians as well as other minorities used to live peacefully side by side with Muslims...
3- The Southeast Asia and large area of Africa embraced Islam because of the good conduct of the Arab Muslim traders who were honest, trustworthy and kind in their commercial dealings? This refutes the claim that Islam spead at the edge of the sword.
And I think you agree with me that to judge any religion or ideology, it is the teachings and principles which should be probed, not the misbehaviour of the followers.
Only silly and biased Muslims or any non-Christians in general would say, for instance, that the some 40 millions of people who were killed during the first and second world wars were a real manifestation of how cruel the Christian teachings are!
"And I think you agree with me that to judge any religion or ideology, it is the teachings and principles which should be probed, not the misbehaviour of the followers."
Yes, I agree. But when the followers of a religion start committing atrocities and use their religion as the reason, people are inevitably (and perhaps justifiably) going to judge the religion based on these followers.
Mesopotamia, cbd - Just to be clear, I was not referring to you guys when I said "some Muslims take this duty to the extreme", and the way you two (and PM) explain the "guiding" aspect sounds like the way it should be done.
But unfortunately not everyone does it that way, and it's these Muslims who alienate Islam and create a bad name for the rest of you.
Dear CuriousButDetermined, here is the story I promised you. I copied it directly from a website without any modification or correction to the typo/gram. mistakes.
Please- if you like- overlook the Quranic texts included as we agreed that no religious books are to be considered firstly.
"The Story of a Scholar and an Atheist"
"....Long ago an Atheist did not believe the existence of God. He asked a scholar for a debate about the existence of God. Among the questions are: “Does God exist?” and “If God exists then where is God?”
Then they decided when and where the debate takes place.
The Atheist and the villagers were waiting for the scholar, but the scholar did not come right on time. When the Atheist and the villagers thought that the scholar will not come for the debate, then the scholar showed up.
“I am sorry to keep you waiting for so long. But the rain is so heavy so the river floods. The bridge drifted away so I could not cross it. Thank God suddenly there was a big tree fell down. Then the branches cut out by themselves so the trunk was branchless. After that the trunk was cut and a hole was created so it became a boat. So I used the boat and crossed the river,” said the scholar.
The Atheist and the villagers were laughing. The Atheist said to the villagers, “This scholar is mad. How can a tree became a boat by itself with no one made it? How can a boat exist with no maker who made it?”
The villagers were laughing out loud.
After the people calmed down, the scholar said, “If you believe that the boat could not exist without its maker, then how could you believe the earth, sky, and its contents exist without its creator? Which is the most difficult to make? Making a boat or creating the earth, sky, and its contents?
Hearing that, they realized that they trapped with their own statement. “Then answer my second question,” said the Atheist. “If God exists, why can’t He be seen? Where is God?” The Atheist thought since he cannot see God then God does not exist.
The scholar slapped the Atheist’s cheek hardly so the Atheist felt so much pain.
“Why did you slap me? It’s very painful”
The scholar asked, “There is no pain. I cannot see pain. Where is pain?”
“The pain is here,” the Atheist pointed his cheek.
“No, I cannot see pain. Do you see the pain?” asked the scholar to the villagers. The villagers said, “No!”
“So, though we cannot see the pain does not mean that the pain does not exist. So is the God. Just because we cannot see the God does not mean that God does not exist. Though we cannot see Him, but we can see His creations.” Said the scholar.
----------------
The argument of the scholar is very simple. Yet, the argument that God does not exist just because human’s sense could not sense the existence of God is very wrong.
How many things that could not be seen or heard by people but exist?
We cannot see the Wind but the Wind exists. We cannot see electricity (what you can see is wire) but electricity exist.
How many things in the sky that billions light years away, even trillions light years away that could not be seen by people yet the things exist?
How many molecular things even nucleus (hair divided in millions) that cannot be seen by people yet exist? People could only see those things by using a very powerful microscope.
How many waves (radio, electromagnetic, electricity, etc) that cannot be seen yet exist?
Those things exist, yet the human sense is very limited so it cannot sense their existence.
The human ability to see colors limited to certain frequencies. People only could hear limited frequencies. Sometimes the light not only very dazzling but also could make people blind. So is the sound. Certain sound could not be heard by human sense while other sound which is very loud could destroy human‘s hearing.
If to sense the creatures of God, sometimes people could not do it, even more to sense the Creator: God!
The Universe, Who is its Creator?
It is hard to proof that God exists. But if we take a look to the planes, cars, TVs, etc, it would be irrational if we say that all exist by themselves. There must be people who make them!
If the simple thing such as the match has its makers, then the universe that far more complex than that must be has its creator.
The Earth where 8 billion people live has circumference 40,000 km. The circumference of the Sun is 4.3 million km. The Sun and its 8 planets along with 100 billion stars are in the Milky Way galaxy whose length is 100,000 light years away.
Milky Way is only a galaxy among thousands galaxies that form a Cluster. This cluster with thousands clusters form 1 Super Cluster. And thousands of Super Clusters form the Universe whose length is 30 billion light years away! Remember, the number 30 billion light years away only current estimation since the strongest telescope today only could reach 15 billion light years away.
Imagine if the distance between Earth and the Sun is 150 million km and passed by the light in just 8 minute, then the whole Universe passed by the light in 30 billion years. That is equal to 285 billion trillion km away. If a man could run 40 km/hour without stopping, he would pass the distance in 810,000 trillion years!
That is the greatness of Allah’s creation! If we believe in the magnificence of Allah’s creation, then we should believe in the magnificence of Allah.
In the Quran Allah explains that He is the creator of Heaven, Star, Sun, Moon, and others:
“Blessed be He Who hath placed in the heaven mansions of the stars, and hath placed therein a great lamp and a moon giving light!” [Quran 25:61]
Is there a Controller of the Universe?
There are millions of people controlling the traffic on road, sea, and air. Beacons are built. People also build traffic light and radar. Air Traffic Control is built to prevent accident. All vehicles have drivers. Even on airplane there are pilot and co-pilot to make the flight safer. On the ships there are Captain, navigator, and engineers. Yet thousands of accidents happen every year on land, sea, and air. Even though there are many controllers, the accidents still happen.
On the contrary, the Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, and others always revolve for billions of years without single crash. Most scientists believe that the Earth, Sun, and all of the other planets and moons in the solar system formed about 4.6 billion years ago. For billions of years until now the Earth never bump into the Sun, and the Sun never collides with the Moon. There is no mark, police, nor pilots to drive them. Without God, the Controller of the Universe, none of these would happen.
Everything is in order because there is God who controls everything. Allah has put orbit for each of those things. If we really think about it then we will know that God exist.
“He it is who appointed the sun a splendor and the moon stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the reckoning. Allah created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the revelations for people who have knowledge” [Quran 10:5]
“It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit” [Quran:40]
.
People who think a lot about universe insha Allah will believe that there is a God!
“Allah it is who raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service, each runneth unto an appointed term; He ordereth the course; He detaileth the revelations, that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.” [Quran 13:2]
“Such as remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say): Our Lord! Thou createdst not this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of Fire” [Quran 3:191]
Who is the Creator of People and Plants?
To those arrogant people who deny the existence of God, Allah questions them about His creatures. Who is the creator of sperm and plant? People or God the All Wise Creator?
“Have ye seen that which ye emit?
Do ye create it or are We the creator?” [Quran 56:58-59]
“Have ye seen that which ye cultivate?
Is it ye who foster it, or are We the Fosterer?” [Quran 56:63-64]
“Was it ye who made the tree thereof to grow, or were We the grower?” [Quran 56:72]
Can Men Create a Fly?
In another verse, Allah challenges others to create a fly if they could do it. Men may be could make robots from things that created by Allah. Yet, none could make a fly from nothing nor thing that could reproduce except Allah:
“…Lo! Those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from him. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!” [Quran 22:73]
There are many other Quran verses that describe the existence of God and God is the All Wise Creator. "
I never told any non Muslim that their reiligion is nonsense. this is utterly unwise. On the contrary, many called what I post "nonsense" but I never replied in kind.
Islam urges us to debate with others gently and with the best manner.
It is a great attempt to prove the existence of God, and you can do so without any religious book as a start. logic and science can be helpful in this regard. If you like, I may help you in your attempt using only logical and scientific points, without mentioning anything about religious books.
By the way, many scientists, intellectuals and prominent people did as you are doning now, namely searching for solid basis to prove God's existence and by simple efforts, they achieved the goals and lived in peace of mind.
I have a nice real story to tell you in this effect, if you allow me.
my first approach is not to use religion (this might be deism?)
However, I believe in the religion of Islam.
Later on, I will take another approach where I plan to introduce Judaism, Christianity & Islam to prove existence of god.
Tallg,
This is why I try not to talk about religion to non muslims because some of them feel uncomfortable. However, I do talk about religion when I see an oppurtunity and acceptability to discuss such issues. I think also that muslims should know enough and have nice approach to be able to convince and so on so beforehand and preparations must be performed.
PM,
you are really contributing to my knowledge here. I do share this idea in a slightly different way: sometimes I ask myself, if religion is not right, why would it ask humans to help the poor and donate resources, and not cheat, and not lie. What benefit would relgion get by asking us to do so? Those ideas help me stay faithful. I shall refer to those later on the prove attempt.
First, guiding people should be in a gentle and lenient way, for there should be no coercion in the matter of religion, as the Quran says. Second, guiding non Muslims does never mean pushing them away and alienating their religion- why? Because Islam came to include their religion with some modifications, but the main crux of it is the same: belief in One God, loving others, being truthful, tolerant, helpful, belief in the Next Life, etc. Allah could have left Judaism or Christianity as the final religions and that is it, but since He revealed a final religion, we are to follow it and not the abrogated ones. Islam is not limited to Muslims, it came to be followed by all people, and i have no more right in it than you.
I hope that you understand my point. I don't intend to offend any non Muslim by saying so, but it is the truth
Dear Platao36, nowhere did I say that science is religion, but science is one way to prove religion. Islam covers every aspect of life including religion. The Quran, being a book for all people in all ages, it has to address people in different levels taking into consideration the different intellectual tendencies; otherwise it will be limited to certain people.
The Islamic teachings (in Quran and Prophet's sayings)relate to everything, because Islam is the code of life, and science is a crucial aspect of life materially (for human advancements in all fields) and spiritually (through being a gate to belief and a way to prove Allah's Abilities and the Quran's authenticity and divinity).
The Quran being the constitution valid for all times, it should address people from the shepherd to the astronomy scientist in order to be understood by all. Allah Almighty says in the Quran (what means):
“…. And We have sent down to you the Book (the Quran) as an exposition of everything, a guidance, a mercy, and glad tidings for those who have submitted themselves (to Allah as Muslims).” [16:89]
Thus, that the Quran includes scientific references doesn't mean that it is a book of science. For example, in a chemistry book, we may find a chapter mentioning some of the geographical areas where phosphor or granite abounds for instance, does it mean that it is a geographical book? Another example, the bible contains the genealogy of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, does it mean that it is a biographical book exclusively?
"it is also a duty on every Muslim to inform non Muslims and guide them, as it is an obligation which must be fulfilled."
I think it is this aspect of Islam that some non-Muslims find so annoying, as some Muslims take this duty too the extreme and non-Muslims feel as though they're having Islam shoved down their throats.
By trying to inform and guide non-Muslims they are more likely to be pushing them away and alienating their religion.
Mesoptania: Embryology is science not religion. In case you haven't noticed, i'm also a muslim but i don't mixup my faith with science, and like it was already stated, if embryology was really known, why would Allah create us from clay. As i also already stated on other posts, it was found in Sakhara several drawnings of flying vehicles and even the plans for the 1st plane (without engines) for more references you can always make a search regarding Saqqara bird.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Please be more courteous to other beliefs to start with...you won't like people telling that your religion is non sense..
feel free to contact me on this regard...
Track me and read the post called do you believe in miracle..you will see a lengthy argument..please read it and you will have a better starting point i believe...
“This is complete nonsense. The physics uses tensor mathematics to describe everything. Where is that mentioned in your book??”
Answer: I am speaking about the scientific facts, not about the method of describing everything, be it tensor math or otherwise? The Quran gives scientific data and leaves the way for us to discover and confirm them by any means suitable. It is not a scientific book in the first place; rather it is a book of guidance, but for people to take the guidance in it with assured minds and hearts and to be convinced about its divinity, Allah includes such references as a way of authentication and verification.
“So pls show link how clay and man are the same, DNA and chemical breakdown etc. ;P”
Answer: what is meant by “ man was made of clay” is Adam as the first human being. The reproduction of his offspring is through sperm. See what the Bible says:
“The LORD God formed the man [a] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.” [Genesis 2:7 (New International Version)]
“lol - Mesopotamia, give up. Those who believe don't need proof. Those who don't believe aren't looking for proof. You're wasting your time.”
Answer: no my friend, all of us need proofs: for the believers to strengthen their belief, for those who don’t believe to be informed and not argue on the Day of Judgement saying: “I haven’t been told of this and I had no idea,” and for the searcher of truth to find the way to salvation. And it is also a duty on every Muslim to inform non Muslims and guide them, as it is an obligation which must be fulfilled. So why should I give up? It is a matter of showing people the way to Paradise, not a contest or war in which one must be victorious and one loser. Rather, it is for all parties to live in peace and win God’s pleasure.
“Mesoptamia: Why do you think that only the Qur'an brings some scientific revelations? The bible also made references on how to build an electrical battery and doesn't turn it on s science book. Like PM stated, Qur'an is spiritual guide and not a science book”
Answer: to begin from the end, when did I say that the Quran is a book of science? It is a book of guidance, but for people to be heartily convinced of its authenticity and divinity, it contains such scientific info as a way of verification. As for the first question: I may answer by another question: “ compare the scientific references in the Torah, Bible and Quran, and see yourself the differences among the three books, which shows you the fact the Quran is the only preserved and dominant book of guidance. As I said earlier, we Muslims do believe in the Old and New Testaments, but the original ones which were revealed to Moses and Jesus, peace be upon them, and not the distorted ones.
“Apart from this what they strongly believe is that you are heading for the Hell and its their duty to save you from this as they are told in their religion. Poor guys, however, don't realise that its not they who can save you but God himself...”
“…go out and do some good - charitable work etc - show me how good your religion is. “
First, charitable work is there almost everywhere but I don’t think it is applicable that for each charitable work done you must receive a bill or notice. And good is also there in different levels and ways, but you will never see it if your eye is only focusing on what is not good, which is there in every community. If you want to know how good my religion is, and it is my duty to help u do so, read about its teachings (AND NOT HOW SOME OF ITS FOLLOWERS LIKE AL-QAIDA MISBEHAVE OR WHAT BIASED MEDIA TRANSMIT) Third, we are to judge religions and ideologies by the teachings, principles, and commandments, not by how the followers apply or misapply them. In all religions, there is a wide gap between the theory and practice, but on the whole you can easily draw a comparison, in figures if you like- through google, between the Islamic societies and non Islamic ones (IN NORMAL SITUATIONS) in terms of crime rate, rape, drugs, child abuse, violence against women, alcohol-caused accidents, robberies, sexually transmitted diseases, incest, suicide, family disintegration, etc.
Answer: yes, I have to be open with you, no way to salvation but through Islam, being the final and only accepted religion with Allah Almighty. For how come that He accepts His old “orders and regulations” which have been abrogated and disregards His FINAL AND MOST INCLUSIVE REGULATIONS? As for salvation, yes it is in the Hands of Allah alone, but through media, and final prophet and his followers are the media, as the previous prophets and their followers and disciples were the media. Or do you want God Himself to come down and guide people and teach them one by one?
I am undergoing an attempt to prove god exists which ties nicely with this thread...and for information...I am trying to do it without using religious books to start with...
MD: I agree with you, just a peatty that people keep trying to mix up science with religion.
As a muslim i belive in God and on His profets, as a human being i'm sure that not all that is known nowadays is explained at the Qur'an or in any other religious book.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Everything is made up of Baryons and Hadrons and Leptons. No matter if you call it clay or man. I give you 5 years to study the basics of physics. Then we can talk again.
I read an interesting article about the Ark of the Covenant, because there is an story where one of the smiths making it gets 'struck' by god and dies.
A scientist was saying by its construction of gold and wood the thing could have acted like very rough capaciter, and therfore could have discharged an electric shock - which could have easily triggered a heart attack especially if they thought that god had struck them.
Ditto PM and plato. These type of statements damage your religion just as when chrisitians wont accept the fossil record.
This is the same advice i wish Jehova witness's would take. Instead of knocking on my door trying to convert me - go out and do some good - charitable work etc - show me how good your religion is.
I don't think it's about it being used a science book. The idea is that the only way someone could have known these things is if God had revealed it to them, and hence these things are proof of God. That's not really proof in my eyes, but I think that's the point that's trying to be made.
Mesoptamia: Why do you think that only the Qur'an brings some scientific revelations? The bible also made references on how to build an electrical battery and doesn't turn it on s science book. Like PM stated, Qur'an is spiritual guide and not a science book
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
"confirming them letter by letter". This is complete nonsense. The physics uses tensor mathematics to describe everything. Where is that mentioned in your book??
Well, just quick answers for those who don't consider the detailed description of the embryological stages in the Quran to be a proof enough for its divinity being the Word of Allah:
1- For those who don't want to read or hear such miraculous things, of course it will not be a proof. It is a proof only for those who are keen on looking at things through an objective eye and non-biased hearts.
2- How can one reasonably argue that such an adequate scientific reference in a Book conveyed to people by an illiterate desert man (who didn’t know to write even his name) 1400 years ago can not be a proof of the Divinity of that book?
3- Isn’t it worth pondering that a book revealed 14 centuries ago contains tens of scientific references with modern science and technology confirming them letter by letter?
The Quran stands the test for centuries, and declared the challenge to human kind all over the ages to find a single discrepancy in it or to produce a single chapter like. Far from finding any contradiction in it, as time passes, scientists from different fields (AND THEY ARE NON-MUSLIMS BTW ) come to confirms these Quranic findings knowingly or otherwise.
Any one interested in the search for truth can probe the Quranic scientific references and expose them to scrutiny to see whether they are in consistency with modern science or not, if he/she is serious and keen on truth.
As for those who don't respect logic and science and look at them as fruitless and void of any credit, it is natural that no proof is of any use.
While for those who respect their minds and look at things through an objective eye, non-biased heart and illuminated mind, things will be totally different.
Watch and listen to what Prof. Keith Moore, a world prominent scientist in anatomy (dept. of surgery), says about this issue which some of you don't regard it as a proof:
Aristotle (350 BC) gave accurate descriptions of ruminants' four-chambered fore-stomachs, and of the ovoviviparous embryological development of the hound shark. (Mustelus mustelus)
For MUSLIMS, Qur'an is the ultimate yardstick, but for many non-muslims Science is the yardstick in life.
Many non-muslims say Qur'an is the word of the man, so such proofs are for them to see and understand that it is impossible without divine revelation to give so detailed description about embryology 1400 years ago when science has discovered it not so long ago that too with the use of powerful instruments for the study.
May Allah guide us all to the straight path, aameen.
Dear brother, i don't want to prove the authenticity and divinity of the Quran, i am just giving a proof for those who don't believe in it as the Word of Allah. For non-believers in the Quran, it is called a proof; for the believers, it is a matter of certitude.
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RD...Islam and muslims are two different things..
the story you referred to in the article is well know to many muslims and we do not deny it..
frnakly, there are bad muslims upon whom non-muslims base thier opinion...unfortunately this happens...
I think Cat Stevens said something similar on how some muslims are different from Islam and what a muslim should be:
http://www.yusufislam.com/biography/
Meso - like PM said, and i criticse chrisitans as well for this, who blindly try to convert people based on your book.
Instead show me the positives of your religion, telling me ill go to hell is not going to convince me or bogus reported science. When i look at chrisitanity, i see the Red cross (which had to be changed to red crescent - stupidity)
I read an interesting article in gulf times i think it was about a muslims travels around the world, i have been tring to find it. He said - "when I was in Europe I didn't see many Muslims but I saw 'Islam' (e.g charites/welfare state/community groups etc), But when I am in the Gulf I see many Muslims but not 'Islam' (e.g grotesque wealth, treatment of labour etc)"
Whoever keeps posting the athiest and the scholar - stop lol. So if I throw 500 muslims and 500 athiests off a building who will survive?
"so how come if the Koran foretold all the scientific inventions, how come no muslims invented anything from it?…"
A good and legitimate question.
1- The Muslims were the masters of knowledge and science in almost every field when they were committed to Islam. They excelled in mathematics, astronomy, medicine, philosophy, literature, geometry, etc, when Europe was living in the sheer darkness of the middle ages. If you read about the history of the Islamic civilization you will come to know that the icons from whom the light of knowledge spread to Europe and elsewhere were Muslims, like: Alhazen, Avicenna, Averroes …………etc.
Kindly check this list of Muslim scientists and see their achievements.
http://www.ummah.net/history/scholars/
As an indication of the Islamic contribution to the world’s civilization, tens of the words you know now as part of you language are from Arabic origin, like: cotton, alcohol, alchemy, almanac, astrolabe, algorithm, algebra, etc.
Kindly check this link to see how many Arabic words have been taken from Arabic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Arabic_origin
As for now, the Muslim world has become dependant on the US and Europe because they eliminated their religion from their life and lost both their religious and worldly prestige. There are other factors for this backwardness, social, economic, political, etc. which need books to cover.
2- Allah Almighty in His infinite Wisdom decreed that the disbelievers themselves discover the scientific phenomena referred to in the Quran to show them the indications of His Omnipotence and Greatness because they need such proofs to have faith in Allah.
Kindly read this Quranic verse for example:
“Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?” 21:30
Apart from the 2 scientific references this Quranic verse includes (the Bing Bang and that water is the origin of all living things), it makes reference to the non believers who came later on to discover those scientific findings.
Take care
1- I didn't say Drwn and Frd's theories are not well known.
2- I mentioned them as hypotheses and theories in comparison to Scientific Facts while speaking about the consistency between the Quran and science.
3- Such side discussions are taking me too far from the crux of the topic.
4- thank you for participation.
Sorry but neither Freud's nor Darwin's theories are insignificaant or not well known.
Your statements bring to the fore that you appear to be not well versed in either of these areas which would cast doubt on your "facts" concerning your recent postings.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it makes your postings less credible or "authoritative" than you might like us to view them - however as Darwin is pretty much the supposed "authority" on evolution in the Western world, your version as presented here has less credibility.
However, perhaps you can point to the specific parts of the Holy Quran and Hadiths that contradict two other points of view that were espoused 1200 years later?
Signature line > "You can't fix stupid"
Oops.. I mean Darwin
I am sorry. It is just a slip of the “pen” because they are both in my mind whenever I remember the fallacies which are magnified and made popular. It doesn't require one to be a genius to know the difference between the two, but as one might do a slip of the tongue, one might similarly do a slip of the "pen".
One might tell someone else: “go straight and then turn left, meaning “right” or: “good morning, meaning “good evening”. Does this mean that he/she doesn’t know the difference between right and left/ morning and evening?
I don’t claim deep knowledge of anything, but I don’t thing knowing the difference between Darwin and his theory and Freud and his theory needs that prowess.
So, dear PM, this doesn’t mean that I am “not knowledgeable about Freud or Darwin” and science altogether.
"Freud's theory of evolution? Sorry Mesopotamia, but that statement undermines anything you say from here on out."
Would you please tell me how??
Freud's theory of evolution? Sorry Mesopotamia, but that statement undermines anything you say from here on out.
Signature line > "You can't fix stupid"
Dear friends,
When we say that science proves the divinity and authenticity of the Quran, we mean the scientific facts and not theories and speculations. Thus, one can not rely on Freud’s theory of evolution, which is shun by scientists themselves, to prove of refute something mentioned in the Quran. One can check the credibility of the Quran using the scientific facts which are beyond doubt. Just as examples, kindly consider the following scientific fields which the Quran referred to more than 1400 years ago:
1- the creation of the heavens and the earth
2- Astronomy
3- the expansion of the universe
4- the conquest of space
5- the conquest of space
6- the mountains
7- the effects of high altitude
8- the origin of life on earth
9- Reproduction in the vegetable kingdom
10- the Animal kingdom
11- formation of milk
12- human reproduction
13- spherical shape of the earth
14- the seven layers of the earth
15- the formation of clouds
16- source of iron
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
In spite of all this conformity between the Quran and science, some friends say: "no, such things are not proofs of the credibility of the Quran!!!!"
Happy..
Thank you for the recommendation..I shall stop here and later post a new thread devoting to prove God exists...
Truthful visitor...Quran did not foretold all scientific inventions..
the list you see was stated in quran...Quran gives some phenomenons and does not go into details..
hint: Islam & christianity & Judaism have many things in common...
Islam was brought to people through one man only....this man does not know how to read or write...How would he tell so many things about christianity and Judaism if it was not from God?
so how come if the Koran foretold all the scientific inventions, how come no muslims invented anything from it?
-------------
"let's slip out of these wet clothes and into a dry martini" Mae West
"1- the creation of the heavens and the earth
2- Astronomy
3- the expansion of the universe
4- the conquest of space
5- the conquest of space
6- the mountains
7- the effects of high altitude
8- the origin of life on earth
9- Reproduction in the vegetable kingdom
10- the Animal kingdom
11- formation of milk
12- human reproduction
13- spherical shape of the earth
14- the seven layers of the earth
15- the formation of clouds
16- source of iron"
None of these are "beyond doubt". Science means to doubt!
You’re sincere and passionate about "your mission". I’m not pulling the plug here, but I wouldn't go there. You’re not intending to tackle rules or laws within a given faith, you’re up against those who don’t have any, in terms of God and Creation.
They’ll wear your patience thin and will challenge your sensible faculties.
If you insist, start a new thread of your own, in the Muslim Group, and remember you cannot always guide those you love.
فَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ إِنَّكَ عَلَى الْحَقِّ الْمُبِينِ «79» إِنَّكَ لَا تُسْمِعُ لْمَوْتَى "وَلَا تُسْمِعُ الصُّمَّ الدُّعَاء"
سورة النمل 79 - 81"
“Trust in Allah for you follow the manifest truth. You cannot make the dead listen and the deaf are unable to hear calls…..” An-naml {79 - 81}
Salam
Is your prediction based on science or religion, tallg?
Another thread heading for ridiculousness :(
You just can't believe that because the Koran mentioned that word 'alaqah' means it predicted it was embryology.
Just plain illogical. It must be the 'way of the land' around here.
How much are they paid to make such websites like these?
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
The Qur'an cannot predict it either "how many times you will pronounce the letter 'H'".
And you still do not understand me at all: I don't believe, not even in science. I don't have to believe. I either know, or I don't know, but that is not a reason to begin believing! It would not solve any problems, just 'lulls' them away. But they are still there. So, I'd rather continue to find out. Even if it takes me another 13 billion years. And I am far from seeking "the truth". Unlike you. There is your truth, and there is somebody else's truth, and each is as good or bad as the other one. I don't need that either. The "truth" is totally uninteresting for science. "Truth" is an opinion. Science models the universe. And if the model works, it's okay, but far from whichever truth. If you mis-use science to prove your "truth" you are making a mistake. Science cannot provide truth! So, stop saying science "proves" this or that from any religion. It doesn't, it doesn't want to, it's not made for this. You are violating my feelings as a scientist if you try to prove religious issues with science. You rape science, you violate the laws of science. But I can overlook it, because you certainly do not think scientifically. So, have a nice sleep.
MD,
Do you believe everything can be explained by physics and mathematics?
We need to be careful on the tools we use and to what they apply and how they should be applied.
Given the great advance in science, it fails to do so many things. Example, modern science fails to predict how many times you will pronounce the letter 'H' for example in the coming week. do you believe science can tell? do we need to know?
Clearly such a tool as science cannot be used.
we need to be more intelligent than that.
Maybe you didn't get it: Aristotle said, if 1 is 1 then it can't be 2 at the same time. Modern physics on the contrary says, if 1 is 1 it sometimes is 1.2 or even 2, it depends on the person who is viewing it, what his mass and velocity are and which question he asks. Sounds like Rumsfeld again?
This is wrong...it is you who made that choice..
there are alot of people who won't back up a nanometer for the sake of money..and if you don't see this..then you don't
Mesoptania: np, i was being honest :)
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Money makes the world go 'round, not religion, my friend.
..
so that is what it comes down to? a better payed job?
I knew something was wrong..
...and? He had a better payed job than you, CBD.
MD..sounds like a Donald Ramsfield statement to me!
Let us not get hanged up on this..but I don't agree to it.
My statement is dead right: you either believe or you don't. If you believe you don't don't believe, and if you don't believe you don't believe.
Happpy Happy..
I am trying to prove god exists because:
- I came across some people who do not believe in god.
- I sincerely believe they are not on the right track and would like to help. It is up to them to believe or not, but I should explain.
- It probably is my duty to spread the message and make it known.
in addition to other reasons.
for details:
http://www.qatarliving.com/node/455385
MD, your last statement about religion is not right. you cannot say religion is either to believe or not.
I am not sure how much you know about religion after reading this.
Do you think we follow a certain religion without being convinced that it is right? and i am not talking about certain religion here.
Dear Mesopotamia, wikipedia is not a serious scientific source. Do yourself a favor and check here: http://arxiv.org/
then we can talk. And thanks for your friendly tone.
Dear Magicdragon:
1- The size of the universe is a matter of difference among the scholars. There is no fixed number of years unanimously agreed upon. The different numbers mentioned are estimations. If you check Wikipedia for example you will read: "...the diameter of the observable Universe is at least 93 billion light years.." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe
2- You overlooked the crux of the post and stuck to a secondary thing which does never change any thing of topic. If the scientist differ among themselves on the exact size of the universe, can you and I agree on it?
3- I wrote nothing of the post from my own mind, I just copied the whole stuff from a website where I found the story for our friend CuriousButDetermined, and I cited the source at the end of the post.
3- The purpose of the whole text was the story of the scholar and the atheist, which I copied to CuriousButDetermined coz i promised him to do so. That is why I put a line just beneath the last line of the story, for the rest is just an optional complement.
4- Let us suppose that the exact size of the universe is only 7 billion light years, not even 13, will that underestimate the greatness of the Creator or mean that this great universe came to being by chance, which is the purpose behind the whole topic?
Best regards
Mesopotamia, are you aware of the fact that you spread false "scientific facts"? (30 billion years)
thanx dear plato
"I think by wise reasoning and friendly dialogue based on logic, solid proofs, with objective and truth-oriented search, everything can be changed. We just need reliance on Allah and trust in His help."
Wise words mesoptania
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
There are undetermined people who’re in between, and need a little convincing, to embrace or cut loose.
Salam
well said magicdragon - you either believe or you don't. This smacks of the religious "right" in North America using the bible to "prove" things, whether it be embryology or the scientific correctness of anything. Faith is faith, that's when you believe in things that cannot be proven logically or scientifically or mathematically - that's the definition of faith.
For example, I believe in the love and support of my family and friends - can I point to specific instances when this has happened? Yes. Can I "prove" it will happen again? No. But I believe it will so long as I do not disappoint them - that's my end of the equation.
Those who continuously seek to "prove" they are "right" are only demonstrating their own insecurities in their faith.
Signature line > "You can't fix stupid"
"Remember, the number 30 billion light years away only current estimation since the strongest telescope today only could reach 15 billion light years away."
Nonsense. Light has a finite speed, nothing can travel faster. There are only 13 billion years past. So, the universe cannot be bigger than 13 billion light years. It has nothing to do with the "strongest" telescopes. They can see farther than that. There is nothing to see beyond 13 billion lightyears distance, because there wasn't anything 13 billion years ago. But if you believe what you said, then there is nothing I can do.
"based on logic, solid proofs", excellent assumption, especially when it comes to religion. There is nothing to prove. You either believe or you don't!
Why do you want to prove God exists and who's your audience?
I commend your non-repelling approach, not necessarily agreeing with you on topic itself. I need no proof elhamdul’Allah.
Salam
I think by wise reasoning and friendly dialogue based on logic, solid proofs, with objective and truth-oriented search, everything can be changed. We just need reliance on Allah and trust in His help.
Unfortunately there will always be those who commit atrocities in the name of religion and those who judge religions based on that. That's never going to change.
And just to be clear, I'm talking about all religions here, not one in particular.
"But when the followers of a religion start committing atrocities and use their religion as the reason, people are inevitably (and perhaps justifiably) going to judge the religion based on these followers."
In this case both are wrong: those who commit such atrocities and who base their judgment on them.
Unless we avoid judging by actions of some of the followers, all religions will be misjudged and avoided because bad followers and "negative representatives" are there in all religions. I suppose I don't need to give examples to make you agree with me, do I?
having to PROVE that their religion is the true one? Seems to be quite an insecurity to me. True faith is one that believes and follows and doesn't have to be "proven".
If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the main difference between a dog and man.
-Mark Twain-
"But unfortunately not everyone does it that way, and it's these Muslims who alienate Islam and create a bad name for the rest of you."
Yes dear friend, this is unfortunately true. The problem is that there is a wide schism between the Practical and Theoretical Islam. There are many reasons for this, among them is that there is no real Islamic leadership in power to lead the Muslim communities. The Muslim ruler is vital for he is the role model to be followed and the power to amend the mistakes and adjust the behaviour. If you have a look at the Islamic history, you will find that when Muslims were united in a well-led state, with the rulers being real embodiment of the teachings, they dominated a vast area of the world within a short period.
If you excuse me to give you just 3 examples of the practical Islam and how it attracts other to it (I will copy the first two examples with some linguistic corrections from: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/59867-what-do-you-feel-wrong-islam-51.html):
1- Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, had a Jewish neighbour who used to throw rubbish and dirt in front of the Prophet's house, as a sign for hatred. Every time the man threw the dirt, the Prophet just removed them...Until a day came when the Prophet didn't see any rubbish outside his door..
He asked the neighbourhood about the Jewish man, and they told him he was sick...
The prophet simply went to his house to check him out!
2- When Prophet Muhammad, peace be be upon him, recaptured Makkah, he just forgave every person there...These people killed many Muslims before, enslaved many others, and hurt the prophet a lot in the past...and he just forgave them!
Through out the Islamic history, Jews and Christians as well as other minorities used to live peacefully side by side with Muslims...
3- The Southeast Asia and large area of Africa embraced Islam because of the good conduct of the Arab Muslim traders who were honest, trustworthy and kind in their commercial dealings? This refutes the claim that Islam spead at the edge of the sword.
And I think you agree with me that to judge any religion or ideology, it is the teachings and principles which should be probed, not the misbehaviour of the followers.
Only silly and biased Muslims or any non-Christians in general would say, for instance, that the some 40 millions of people who were killed during the first and second world wars were a real manifestation of how cruel the Christian teachings are!
"And I think you agree with me that to judge any religion or ideology, it is the teachings and principles which should be probed, not the misbehaviour of the followers."
Yes, I agree. But when the followers of a religion start committing atrocities and use their religion as the reason, people are inevitably (and perhaps justifiably) going to judge the religion based on these followers.
Mesopotamia, cbd - Just to be clear, I was not referring to you guys when I said "some Muslims take this duty to the extreme", and the way you two (and PM) explain the "guiding" aspect sounds like the way it should be done.
But unfortunately not everyone does it that way, and it's these Muslims who alienate Islam and create a bad name for the rest of you.
Dear CuriousButDetermined, here is the story I promised you. I copied it directly from a website without any modification or correction to the typo/gram. mistakes.
Please- if you like- overlook the Quranic texts included as we agreed that no religious books are to be considered firstly.
"The Story of a Scholar and an Atheist"
"....Long ago an Atheist did not believe the existence of God. He asked a scholar for a debate about the existence of God. Among the questions are: “Does God exist?” and “If God exists then where is God?”
Then they decided when and where the debate takes place.
The Atheist and the villagers were waiting for the scholar, but the scholar did not come right on time. When the Atheist and the villagers thought that the scholar will not come for the debate, then the scholar showed up.
“I am sorry to keep you waiting for so long. But the rain is so heavy so the river floods. The bridge drifted away so I could not cross it. Thank God suddenly there was a big tree fell down. Then the branches cut out by themselves so the trunk was branchless. After that the trunk was cut and a hole was created so it became a boat. So I used the boat and crossed the river,” said the scholar.
The Atheist and the villagers were laughing. The Atheist said to the villagers, “This scholar is mad. How can a tree became a boat by itself with no one made it? How can a boat exist with no maker who made it?”
The villagers were laughing out loud.
After the people calmed down, the scholar said, “If you believe that the boat could not exist without its maker, then how could you believe the earth, sky, and its contents exist without its creator? Which is the most difficult to make? Making a boat or creating the earth, sky, and its contents?
Hearing that, they realized that they trapped with their own statement. “Then answer my second question,” said the Atheist. “If God exists, why can’t He be seen? Where is God?” The Atheist thought since he cannot see God then God does not exist.
The scholar slapped the Atheist’s cheek hardly so the Atheist felt so much pain.
“Why did you slap me? It’s very painful”
The scholar asked, “There is no pain. I cannot see pain. Where is pain?”
“The pain is here,” the Atheist pointed his cheek.
“No, I cannot see pain. Do you see the pain?” asked the scholar to the villagers. The villagers said, “No!”
“So, though we cannot see the pain does not mean that the pain does not exist. So is the God. Just because we cannot see the God does not mean that God does not exist. Though we cannot see Him, but we can see His creations.” Said the scholar.
----------------
The argument of the scholar is very simple. Yet, the argument that God does not exist just because human’s sense could not sense the existence of God is very wrong.
How many things that could not be seen or heard by people but exist?
We cannot see the Wind but the Wind exists. We cannot see electricity (what you can see is wire) but electricity exist.
How many things in the sky that billions light years away, even trillions light years away that could not be seen by people yet the things exist?
How many molecular things even nucleus (hair divided in millions) that cannot be seen by people yet exist? People could only see those things by using a very powerful microscope.
How many waves (radio, electromagnetic, electricity, etc) that cannot be seen yet exist?
Those things exist, yet the human sense is very limited so it cannot sense their existence.
The human ability to see colors limited to certain frequencies. People only could hear limited frequencies. Sometimes the light not only very dazzling but also could make people blind. So is the sound. Certain sound could not be heard by human sense while other sound which is very loud could destroy human‘s hearing.
If to sense the creatures of God, sometimes people could not do it, even more to sense the Creator: God!
The Universe, Who is its Creator?
It is hard to proof that God exists. But if we take a look to the planes, cars, TVs, etc, it would be irrational if we say that all exist by themselves. There must be people who make them!
If the simple thing such as the match has its makers, then the universe that far more complex than that must be has its creator.
The Earth where 8 billion people live has circumference 40,000 km. The circumference of the Sun is 4.3 million km. The Sun and its 8 planets along with 100 billion stars are in the Milky Way galaxy whose length is 100,000 light years away.
Milky Way is only a galaxy among thousands galaxies that form a Cluster. This cluster with thousands clusters form 1 Super Cluster. And thousands of Super Clusters form the Universe whose length is 30 billion light years away! Remember, the number 30 billion light years away only current estimation since the strongest telescope today only could reach 15 billion light years away.
Imagine if the distance between Earth and the Sun is 150 million km and passed by the light in just 8 minute, then the whole Universe passed by the light in 30 billion years. That is equal to 285 billion trillion km away. If a man could run 40 km/hour without stopping, he would pass the distance in 810,000 trillion years!
That is the greatness of Allah’s creation! If we believe in the magnificence of Allah’s creation, then we should believe in the magnificence of Allah.
In the Quran Allah explains that He is the creator of Heaven, Star, Sun, Moon, and others:
“Blessed be He Who hath placed in the heaven mansions of the stars, and hath placed therein a great lamp and a moon giving light!” [Quran 25:61]
Is there a Controller of the Universe?
There are millions of people controlling the traffic on road, sea, and air. Beacons are built. People also build traffic light and radar. Air Traffic Control is built to prevent accident. All vehicles have drivers. Even on airplane there are pilot and co-pilot to make the flight safer. On the ships there are Captain, navigator, and engineers. Yet thousands of accidents happen every year on land, sea, and air. Even though there are many controllers, the accidents still happen.
On the contrary, the Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, and others always revolve for billions of years without single crash. Most scientists believe that the Earth, Sun, and all of the other planets and moons in the solar system formed about 4.6 billion years ago. For billions of years until now the Earth never bump into the Sun, and the Sun never collides with the Moon. There is no mark, police, nor pilots to drive them. Without God, the Controller of the Universe, none of these would happen.
Everything is in order because there is God who controls everything. Allah has put orbit for each of those things. If we really think about it then we will know that God exist.
“He it is who appointed the sun a splendor and the moon stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the reckoning. Allah created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the revelations for people who have knowledge” [Quran 10:5]
“It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit” [Quran:40]
.
People who think a lot about universe insha Allah will believe that there is a God!
“Allah it is who raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service, each runneth unto an appointed term; He ordereth the course; He detaileth the revelations, that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.” [Quran 13:2]
“Such as remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say): Our Lord! Thou createdst not this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of Fire” [Quran 3:191]
Who is the Creator of People and Plants?
To those arrogant people who deny the existence of God, Allah questions them about His creatures. Who is the creator of sperm and plant? People or God the All Wise Creator?
“Have ye seen that which ye emit?
Do ye create it or are We the creator?” [Quran 56:58-59]
“Have ye seen that which ye cultivate?
Is it ye who foster it, or are We the Fosterer?” [Quran 56:63-64]
“Was it ye who made the tree thereof to grow, or were We the grower?” [Quran 56:72]
Can Men Create a Fly?
In another verse, Allah challenges others to create a fly if they could do it. Men may be could make robots from things that created by Allah. Yet, none could make a fly from nothing nor thing that could reproduce except Allah:
“…Lo! Those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from him. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!” [Quran 22:73]
There are many other Quran verses that describe the existence of God and God is the All Wise Creator. "
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source: http://islammyreligion.wordpress.com/2008/09/12/does-god-exist-proof-of-the-existence-of-god/
Dear CuriousButDetermined
I never told any non Muslim that their reiligion is nonsense. this is utterly unwise. On the contrary, many called what I post "nonsense" but I never replied in kind.
Islam urges us to debate with others gently and with the best manner.
Dear CuriousButDetermined,
It is a great attempt to prove the existence of God, and you can do so without any religious book as a start. logic and science can be helpful in this regard. If you like, I may help you in your attempt using only logical and scientific points, without mentioning anything about religious books.
By the way, many scientists, intellectuals and prominent people did as you are doning now, namely searching for solid basis to prove God's existence and by simple efforts, they achieved the goals and lived in peace of mind.
I have a nice real story to tell you in this effect, if you allow me.
.....
wating for you reply
Plato..
my mission here is to prove god exists..
my first approach is not to use religion (this might be deism?)
However, I believe in the religion of Islam.
Later on, I will take another approach where I plan to introduce Judaism, Christianity & Islam to prove existence of god.
Tallg,
This is why I try not to talk about religion to non muslims because some of them feel uncomfortable. However, I do talk about religion when I see an oppurtunity and acceptability to discuss such issues. I think also that muslims should know enough and have nice approach to be able to convince and so on so beforehand and preparations must be performed.
PM,
you are really contributing to my knowledge here. I do share this idea in a slightly different way: sometimes I ask myself, if religion is not right, why would it ask humans to help the poor and donate resources, and not cheat, and not lie. What benefit would relgion get by asking us to do so? Those ideas help me stay faithful. I shall refer to those later on the prove attempt.
Dear tallg,
First, guiding people should be in a gentle and lenient way, for there should be no coercion in the matter of religion, as the Quran says. Second, guiding non Muslims does never mean pushing them away and alienating their religion- why? Because Islam came to include their religion with some modifications, but the main crux of it is the same: belief in One God, loving others, being truthful, tolerant, helpful, belief in the Next Life, etc. Allah could have left Judaism or Christianity as the final religions and that is it, but since He revealed a final religion, we are to follow it and not the abrogated ones. Islam is not limited to Muslims, it came to be followed by all people, and i have no more right in it than you.
I hope that you understand my point. I don't intend to offend any non Muslim by saying so, but it is the truth
Dear Platao36, nowhere did I say that science is religion, but science is one way to prove religion. Islam covers every aspect of life including religion. The Quran, being a book for all people in all ages, it has to address people in different levels taking into consideration the different intellectual tendencies; otherwise it will be limited to certain people.
The Islamic teachings (in Quran and Prophet's sayings)relate to everything, because Islam is the code of life, and science is a crucial aspect of life materially (for human advancements in all fields) and spiritually (through being a gate to belief and a way to prove Allah's Abilities and the Quran's authenticity and divinity).
The Quran being the constitution valid for all times, it should address people from the shepherd to the astronomy scientist in order to be understood by all. Allah Almighty says in the Quran (what means):
“…. And We have sent down to you the Book (the Quran) as an exposition of everything, a guidance, a mercy, and glad tidings for those who have submitted themselves (to Allah as Muslims).” [16:89]
Thus, that the Quran includes scientific references doesn't mean that it is a book of science. For example, in a chemistry book, we may find a chapter mentioning some of the geographical areas where phosphor or granite abounds for instance, does it mean that it is a geographical book? Another example, the bible contains the genealogy of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, does it mean that it is a biographical book exclusively?
"it is also a duty on every Muslim to inform non Muslims and guide them, as it is an obligation which must be fulfilled."
I think it is this aspect of Islam that some non-Muslims find so annoying, as some Muslims take this duty too the extreme and non-Muslims feel as though they're having Islam shoved down their throats.
By trying to inform and guide non-Muslims they are more likely to be pushing them away and alienating their religion.
Just my thoughts.
CBD: I advise you the following link, if you wanna prove that God exists without using any religious books:
http://www.deism.com/
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Mesoptania: Embryology is science not religion. In case you haven't noticed, i'm also a muslim but i don't mixup my faith with science, and like it was already stated, if embryology was really known, why would Allah create us from clay. As i also already stated on other posts, it was found in Sakhara several drawnings of flying vehicles and even the plans for the 1st plane (without engines) for more references you can always make a search regarding Saqqara bird.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Mesopotamia...
Thanks for the initiative...Take it easy..
Please be more courteous to other beliefs to start with...you won't like people telling that your religion is non sense..
feel free to contact me on this regard...
Track me and read the post called do you believe in miracle..you will see a lengthy argument..please read it and you will have a better starting point i believe...
Let me know the story you mentioned please...
“This is complete nonsense. The physics uses tensor mathematics to describe everything. Where is that mentioned in your book??”
Answer: I am speaking about the scientific facts, not about the method of describing everything, be it tensor math or otherwise? The Quran gives scientific data and leaves the way for us to discover and confirm them by any means suitable. It is not a scientific book in the first place; rather it is a book of guidance, but for people to take the guidance in it with assured minds and hearts and to be convinced about its divinity, Allah includes such references as a way of authentication and verification.
“So pls show link how clay and man are the same, DNA and chemical breakdown etc. ;P”
Answer: what is meant by “ man was made of clay” is Adam as the first human being. The reproduction of his offspring is through sperm. See what the Bible says:
“The LORD God formed the man [a] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.” [Genesis 2:7 (New International Version)]
“lol - Mesopotamia, give up. Those who believe don't need proof. Those who don't believe aren't looking for proof. You're wasting your time.”
Answer: no my friend, all of us need proofs: for the believers to strengthen their belief, for those who don’t believe to be informed and not argue on the Day of Judgement saying: “I haven’t been told of this and I had no idea,” and for the searcher of truth to find the way to salvation. And it is also a duty on every Muslim to inform non Muslims and guide them, as it is an obligation which must be fulfilled. So why should I give up? It is a matter of showing people the way to Paradise, not a contest or war in which one must be victorious and one loser. Rather, it is for all parties to live in peace and win God’s pleasure.
“Mesoptamia: Why do you think that only the Qur'an brings some scientific revelations? The bible also made references on how to build an electrical battery and doesn't turn it on s science book. Like PM stated, Qur'an is spiritual guide and not a science book”
Answer: to begin from the end, when did I say that the Quran is a book of science? It is a book of guidance, but for people to be heartily convinced of its authenticity and divinity, it contains such scientific info as a way of verification. As for the first question: I may answer by another question: “ compare the scientific references in the Torah, Bible and Quran, and see yourself the differences among the three books, which shows you the fact the Quran is the only preserved and dominant book of guidance. As I said earlier, we Muslims do believe in the Old and New Testaments, but the original ones which were revealed to Moses and Jesus, peace be upon them, and not the distorted ones.
“Apart from this what they strongly believe is that you are heading for the Hell and its their duty to save you from this as they are told in their religion. Poor guys, however, don't realise that its not they who can save you but God himself...”
“…go out and do some good - charitable work etc - show me how good your religion is. “
First, charitable work is there almost everywhere but I don’t think it is applicable that for each charitable work done you must receive a bill or notice. And good is also there in different levels and ways, but you will never see it if your eye is only focusing on what is not good, which is there in every community. If you want to know how good my religion is, and it is my duty to help u do so, read about its teachings (AND NOT HOW SOME OF ITS FOLLOWERS LIKE AL-QAIDA MISBEHAVE OR WHAT BIASED MEDIA TRANSMIT) Third, we are to judge religions and ideologies by the teachings, principles, and commandments, not by how the followers apply or misapply them. In all religions, there is a wide gap between the theory and practice, but on the whole you can easily draw a comparison, in figures if you like- through google, between the Islamic societies and non Islamic ones (IN NORMAL SITUATIONS) in terms of crime rate, rape, drugs, child abuse, violence against women, alcohol-caused accidents, robberies, sexually transmitted diseases, incest, suicide, family disintegration, etc.
Answer: yes, I have to be open with you, no way to salvation but through Islam, being the final and only accepted religion with Allah Almighty. For how come that He accepts His old “orders and regulations” which have been abrogated and disregards His FINAL AND MOST INCLUSIVE REGULATIONS? As for salvation, yes it is in the Hands of Allah alone, but through media, and final prophet and his followers are the media, as the previous prophets and their followers and disciples were the media. Or do you want God Himself to come down and guide people and teach them one by one?
very interesting...
Keep questioning guys..it is a healthy process...
respect to all beliefs and people.
I am undergoing an attempt to prove god exists which ties nicely with this thread...and for information...I am trying to do it without using religious books to start with...
Just saw the post and wanted to leave remarks..
PM, Great input!
MD: I agree with you, just a peatty that people keep trying to mix up science with religion.
As a muslim i belive in God and on His profets, as a human being i'm sure that not all that is known nowadays is explained at the Qur'an or in any other religious book.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
It can be fabricated, gypsy, by denouncing any evidence that speaks against it. That's the usual method!
Ahhh, yes this wonderful "proof" try as we might though we can't find evidence that people came from a drop of clay. :P
Roadtester: Yeaps, i saw a documentary on TV were they were explaining that the arch of alliance was the 1st electric batery.
Tallg: Yes, you are right, have you seen the pictures found at Sakhara similar to modern helicopters?
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Everything is made up of Baryons and Hadrons and Leptons. No matter if you call it clay or man. I give you 5 years to study the basics of physics. Then we can talk again.
So pls show link how clay and man are the same, DNA and chemical breakdown etc. ;P
"Miracles" explained, roadtester.
I read an interesting article about the Ark of the Covenant, because there is an story where one of the smiths making it gets 'struck' by god and dies.
A scientist was saying by its construction of gold and wood the thing could have acted like very rough capaciter, and therfore could have discharged an electric shock - which could have easily triggered a heart attack especially if they thought that god had struck them.
Ditto PM and plato. These type of statements damage your religion just as when chrisitians wont accept the fossil record.
This is the same advice i wish Jehova witness's would take. Instead of knocking on my door trying to convert me - go out and do some good - charitable work etc - show me how good your religion is.
It all has been said in PM's first comment.
I don't think it's about it being used a science book. The idea is that the only way someone could have known these things is if God had revealed it to them, and hence these things are proof of God. That's not really proof in my eyes, but I think that's the point that's trying to be made.
Mesoptamia: Why do you think that only the Qur'an brings some scientific revelations? The bible also made references on how to build an electrical battery and doesn't turn it on s science book. Like PM stated, Qur'an is spiritual guide and not a science book
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
lol - Mesopotamia, give up. Those who believe don't need proof. Those who don't believe aren't looking for proof. You're wasting your time.
"confirming them letter by letter". This is complete nonsense. The physics uses tensor mathematics to describe everything. Where is that mentioned in your book??
Well, just quick answers for those who don't consider the detailed description of the embryological stages in the Quran to be a proof enough for its divinity being the Word of Allah:
1- For those who don't want to read or hear such miraculous things, of course it will not be a proof. It is a proof only for those who are keen on looking at things through an objective eye and non-biased hearts.
2- How can one reasonably argue that such an adequate scientific reference in a Book conveyed to people by an illiterate desert man (who didn’t know to write even his name) 1400 years ago can not be a proof of the Divinity of that book?
3- Isn’t it worth pondering that a book revealed 14 centuries ago contains tens of scientific references with modern science and technology confirming them letter by letter?
The Quran stands the test for centuries, and declared the challenge to human kind all over the ages to find a single discrepancy in it or to produce a single chapter like. Far from finding any contradiction in it, as time passes, scientists from different fields (AND THEY ARE NON-MUSLIMS BTW ) come to confirms these Quranic findings knowingly or otherwise.
Any one interested in the search for truth can probe the Quranic scientific references and expose them to scrutiny to see whether they are in consistency with modern science or not, if he/she is serious and keen on truth.
As for those who don't respect logic and science and look at them as fruitless and void of any credit, it is natural that no proof is of any use.
While for those who respect their minds and look at things through an objective eye, non-biased heart and illuminated mind, things will be totally different.
Watch and listen to what Prof. Keith Moore, a world prominent scientist in anatomy (dept. of surgery), says about this issue which some of you don't regard it as a proof:
"The Quran is my spiritual guide -- not my science textbook."
PM: Couldn't agree more :)
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Well said, PM.
"And btw, even as a Muslim I do not agree that this aya ...
provides ANY evidence related to the modern knowledge of embryology. It is simply extrapolated by modern people and shaped to make it seem so. "
Exactly what I was about to say (apart from the bit about being a Muslim :). Thank you PM.
Aristotle (350 BC) gave accurate descriptions of ruminants' four-chambered fore-stomachs, and of the ovoviviparous embryological development of the hound shark. (Mustelus mustelus)
Well said king. May Allah bless u
For MUSLIMS, Qur'an is the ultimate yardstick, but for many non-muslims Science is the yardstick in life.
Many non-muslims say Qur'an is the word of the man, so such proofs are for them to see and understand that it is impossible without divine revelation to give so detailed description about embryology 1400 years ago when science has discovered it not so long ago that too with the use of powerful instruments for the study.
May Allah guide us all to the straight path, aameen.
Dear brother, i don't want to prove the authenticity and divinity of the Quran, i am just giving a proof for those who don't believe in it as the Word of Allah. For non-believers in the Quran, it is called a proof; for the believers, it is a matter of certitude.