Euthanasia: Murder or Relief ?

some people go through so much pain and suffering and still can't get access to euthanasia because its illegal in most countries . However, there are well connected people who can help you with this. I can vouch for them because they helped an elderly member in my family with a peaceful exit . if you are on the social media watsAPP, reach out to (plus three one nine seven zero one zero two one zero eight six six ). They can help you get it like they helped my NANA

. Getting euthanasia is easier than most people think

... that should I need to be kept alive using artificial assistance that the plug be pulled - it is not right for my family to make that decision - I take full responsibility for it... and I do not want them to be dragged thru indefinite time, wondering if I will make it or not...

but having been brought up as a Catholic, if I top myself it's considered suicide and I don't get to be buried on hallowed ground, let alone allowed through the Gates of Heaven (allegedly).

I only have to have a bad toothache or a sciatic nerve pain and I think "OMG I can't live with this the rest of my life! no no no".

Then I go to the Dentist or get anti-inflammatory drugs and the pain goes away, and I'm all set to live another day.

IF I was in desperate pain and all cures had been attempted, then I guess I wouldn't want to go on and would like the option to do something about it. I would cling to life as long as I feasibly could (wouldn't we all) but there must come a point in certain situations where a person has a right to decide for himself whether they wish to continue or not. If it meant someone has to assist me, then so be it but I wouldn't want it on their conscience, so ... OD myself? Would take courage. I guess that would be voluntary euthanasia.

I really can't imagine being in that situation and hope I die in my sleep, but who knows .....

I don't think taking a more leniant view on euthanaisa will ever stop doctors from trying to find cures. It's human nature to want to live. Which is why I think if someone is in such pain that they actually want to die, it is more cruel not to give them that.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

I see a difference between pulling the plug for a patient who's using a machine to pump his heart or to make a patient inhale carbon monoxide and actively kill him.

I fear that if euthanasia becomes a "norm", people will start to lose hope and trust in doctors, and doctors might start to give up more easily. Shouldn't we keep trying to find treatment instead of just ending one's life ?

ur destiny. What is to b remembered is that v r not going to live in this world forever. So non-aggresive euthanasia is what I recommend. But mercy killing naah!

I know of a person who had in his will that he not b taken to a hospital(Intensive care unit etc). There was big argument amongst his children, when he was critically ill and finally they decided to privately arrange all the equipment in his bedroom. So there he was lying in his bed with all the tubes and drips and ventilator.

Personally I think it's less murder for a doctor to take a life out of mercy then a solider to take a life in war, or the government to execute a prisoner. Perhaps it's because I'm not religious that I see killing a healthy, vital, person on the orders of a government or church as wrong but taking the life of someone, who if left alone would be dead anyway, who is in great pain and going to die and giving them a the dignity of a death that they have chosen. I just know that if I ever got to the point my grandmother did I would hope someone would put me out of my misery.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

I totally agree with jauntie on the 'making it legal'aspect. At the same time I would applaud a doctor who would discreetly let a terminally ill patient go. Corne you may not be willingly responsible for a patient's death but WHAT IF he dies during a surgery by you (GOD FORBID) or during a simple saline transfusion. Being a doctor you have to take many risk and decisions. A doctor may decide to amputate a limb for the person to survive.

Personally I don't think it should be legalised because that would leave the act of euthanizing someone too open to abuse.

Some nasty people out there!

If u read earlier post, u'll see that I clearly said that I don't have a stand point but I'm just looking at both sides of the coin. I'm still not sure if I'm with or against, I'm just getting opinions from everyone...and what better way to get it than to contradict everything said?

Ofcourse it's grey, that's why we're talking about it. Personally, I think I would do all in my power to heal the patient and to make his final days as comfortable as possible, but he/she insists on euthanasia I would refuse treatment and tell them to find another doctor. I don't want to be responsible for a person's death, I am not a killer.

But who knows, I might have a different point of view tomorrow.

But do u think it should be legalized ?

lol wasnt yelling at all...if you r talking about the capital letters thats cos i wanted to highlight that point really well...you seemed to be going that way with all your threads and the 'evidence' you presented.

anyway my views on this are pretty clear as i have elaborated before.

as regards the grey areas ...its still grey.

do it right - the first time!

First of all CQ, Do not yell at me!

Second, I never said I would treat a patient against his wishes just because they don't match me. Please don't put words in my mouth!

I would never force my beliefs on someone else! All I was saying is that a doctor should not be forced to discard his own beliefs to please the patient.

Morphine is given to relieve pain not to kill a patient. There's a difference. Is it a doctor's right to terminate life ?

easily countered

point 1

the public would lose faith.

ask the suffering patient if he cares two hoots what the "healthy' public thinks.

point 2

request for swift death

read my earlier post about extensive and exhaustive safeguards in place.

even if patient requested swift death ,it would not be possible.

point 3

medicine has come leaps and bounds since that era.

and yes dont mix religion and medicine...if your views differ from that of your patients either refuse to treat him and refer him to someone else or else abide by the patients wishes.BUT DONT EVER MAKE THE MISTAKE OF TREATING A PATIENT AGAINST HIS WISHES JUST BECAUSE THEY DONT MATCH WITH YOURS???am i clear cornellian???

do it right - the first time!

who point blank REFUSE to allow a member of their family to have a blood transfusion ON RELIGIOUS GROUNDS and under any circumstances? Jehovah's Witnesses I believe are one of those groups.

I realise this isn't euthanasia ... just a different slant on how religion can and does occasionally get involved.

I also was under the impression that when, say, someone is dying of an incurable Cancer condition and in desperate pain it is usually the Morphine which kills them before the Cancer gets them.

That isn't euthanasia either is it Corne? Or would you consider that to be aggressive.

CQ u say don't mix religion with medicine. That is impossible. No matter what a doctor is a person with his/her own morals and beliefs. Should he/her give up all their beliefs for their patient's wishes ?

Also, the grounds are not only religious. Here are a few arguments:

1. The dedication of the medical profession to the welfare of patients and to the promotion of health might be seriously undermined in the eyes of the public and of patients by the complicity of physicians in the death of the very ill, even of those who request it. It is possible that subtle changes would enter into the relationship of patients and their physicians should such a practice become common.

2.Requests for swift death often are made in circumstances of extreme distress, which may be alleviated by skillful pain management and other positive interventions such as those used in hospice care.

3. Even if initial toleration of euthanasia is limited to the voluntary situation, it is possible that, once established, the practice might become more acceptable for involuntary patients whom others assume "would have requested it" if they had been able.

The "euthanasia" program initiated in Germany in the first half of the last century with the support of many benevolent physicians was first directed only to the incurably ill; it gradually expanded into genocide

(This was taken from a book called Clinical Ethics)

What ur talking about is only one type of euthanasia, which is passive euthanasia.

There's also non-aggresive which is removing life-support, and there's aggresive which is prescribing deadly drugs to actively kill the patients. So some doctors actively kill their patients. Aren't doctors healers and not killers?

By the way, I don't have a firm view on this, I'm just looking at both sides of the coin.

thats is a correct interpretation of the oath.(jauntie)

no one who has really seen clinical suffering can really oppose the practise of euthanasia (under safeguards).

opposition is usually on religious grounds and as i have said earlier dont mix religion and medicine!!!

cornellian you are quite within your rights to bear your viewpoints but i can assure you that will change once you are a few years into clinical practice.

do it right - the first time!

"the Hippocratic Oath "To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death"

That refers to prescribing a deadly drug which may cause death, not to simply NOT prescribing anything and thus allowing the person die a natural death without medical interference.

Probably much the same as we all died prior to various types of medications being discovered and/or invented and also how people die every day if there is no-one around to assist them, whether a medic or not.

Sorry

If you can't change your fate, change your attitude.

I'm sorry for ur loss Jauntie, and I'm sorry that ur mother had to go through all that.

As much as I feel sympathetic to such patients, it still makes me wonder if it's the "right" thing to do. Did we choose when our life began? So why should we decide when it ends? A doctor's job is to make life better not death easier, as stated in the Hippocratic Oath "To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death."

when my mother was elderly and in hospital. The doctors took me to one side and said she had no quality of life left and they weren't going to 'assist' her medically any further "did I understand what they meant". I said I did.

However, the next day my older brother went to the hospital and disagreed. She had a few more years in pain and was desperately unhappy and mentally ill and on drugs of all descriptions. Even my brother said later that he regretted what he had done.

When, eventually, she was yet again 'on her death bed' I went to the ward sister and said 'you aren't going to prolong this are you, please?'. She nodded that they weren't.

It was the hardest decision I ever made, but I could no longer watch a cabbage in such misery.

Actually, just before she died, my sister and I were at her bedside. She hadn't spoken for days, but she suddenly said "thank you" and mentioned both our names.

I neither considered it assisted suicide nor euthanasia. I believe I did the right thing in allowing her to slip away peacefully and to no longer suffer in this life.

I can't type any more, cos I'm now too distressed.

i am a firm believer in the quality of life . in fact most of my surgical work is based on it.the very reason for operating sometimes in elderly ages is to enable the person to be painfree mobile and independant. sometimes we are forced to terminate life as in post traumatic brain dead cases.but this is done after an extensive (i should say exhaustive)process after sometimes days and weeks of artificial life support. it is beyond the scope of this forum to go into the elaborate procedures followed.suffice it is to say that (at the risk of repetition) there are still several grey areas in the euthanasia scene .hopefully these boundaries will become clearer in future.

iit right - the first time

Morning. Whether we like it or not this is one of their roles, it goes to the core of the medical profession - do they prolong life at all costs or do doctors treat suffering? Sometimes these roles are in conflict and irreconcilable. Quality of life versus length of existence. I would be interested in cool qm's and corn's opinions as they 'seem' to be on either side (for valid reasons) of this ethical problem.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

After a refreshing sleep I remember the word as *scalpel* blades for dissection. What was I thinking when I typed spatula.?? LOL

ADEY: I was'nt replying to you. I made a general statement. IMHO, doctor's should focus on their roles and not debate mercy killing. Cheers.

I meant a legal dilemma not a moral one. Although a doctor on religious grounds would find euthanasia or mercy killing a moral dilemma.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

During the inception of medical sciences, most of the work was experiment on human guinea pigs. Humans at death bed were injected with antibiotics or whatever. If they recoup it was triump of medicine. The aim was to relieve a patient from pain and misery. So should it be.

Where does moral dilemma comes into picture ? The moment a doctor in the making picks his/her spatula (hope that's what it is called) to dissect a dead human body he/she surpasses all ethics BUT for a good cause.

and to reduce your current headache i shall take my forty winks!!!lol

catch ya all tomorrow then yawn...good night

do it right - the first time!

it is assisted suicide. One or two countries in Europe and one ( I think) American state allow for this in law.

Its a tricky legal situation for doctors but many get round the law by using a lawful grey area eg when a terminally ill patient is in great pain then doctors sometimes administer overdoses of painkillers to bring comfort in their dying moments. Its a kindness. Though its NOT voluntary euthanasia.

What would you do? Would you watch someone die in great pain and do nothing when you had it in your power to ease their passing?

The grey area is at what point do you administer medication. Its a dilemma.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

Aren't doctors playing God all the time. Agreed, many decisions are based on scientific tests. Still as patients we put ourselves in hands of doctor. Surgery in itself is behaving God from doctor's part. Doctor's focus should always be - how to help reduce patients pain.

Mean...ppl here are playing God or what...is this just a Doctors Thread...cos I see QL's 2 fabulous doctors at it...

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" Live Life To The Fullest ! Enjoy Yourself "

if the patient wanted it , it is not only my right,i would consider it my sacred duty!!!

the problems in medicine start when you try to mix religion and medicine.which is what you are doing now.

keep them apart. they dont complement each other,not in oncology.!!!

But even with pulling the plug, both u and the patient decide to end his life, right ? Is it our right to terminate life even if the patient wants it ? Isn't that assisted suicide ?

technically, yes but if you will be given an option like administering euthanasia, why not? this is the main reason why i did not pursue meds (as if..lol) when doctors offer euthanasia means that they already gave up...

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[playing god doesnt just mean i pull the plug and thats it. when you progress in medicine further cornellian you will realise the difficult part to do is the decision making. anyone can pull a plug.in voluntary euthanasia the patient assists in the decision.

in involuntary the entire decision is on you.!!!and thats why i said u cant play god

it right - the first time!

[playing god doesnt just mean i pull the plug and thats it. when you progress in medicine further cornellian you will realise the difficult part to do is the decision making. anyone can pull a plug.in voluntary euthanasia the patient assists in the decision.

in involuntary the entire decision is on you.!!!and thats why i said u cant play god

it right - the first time!

But isn't it like suicide ? Aren't u killing urself ? And the doctor's helping so isn't that assisted murder ? Is there a point where the doctor should give up and kill the patient or should he/she keep trying in curing the patient ?

Voluntary euthanasia...yes, providing safeguards are in place to make sure no one is pressured into it and they have given it proper and informed consideration.

It will never happen here however because of religious limitations.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

putting myself in the situation...it would be a relief, can't see my family suffering from looking and waiting for me go flatline..and on my side, to end the pain where i know the fact that its just a matter of time..

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Well if u couldn't play god, then how can u support voluntary euthanasia? Isn't that killing a soul ? And according to u, isn't that God's job ?

cornie u got to do a research project on it or are you posting it out of curiosity.

lol..you know i always had a tussle in my final year of undergraduation as to what surgical speciality i would take but there was one thing i knew i would never take .......oncology.i d feel pretty useless and helpless.to answer your question i support voluntary euthanasia but not involuntary. i couldnt play god!hope that helps.

do it right - the first time!