Muslims are not suppose to drink,commit fornication or commit other immoral acts.but some do.but it still doesn't make it right nor Islamic. but i think the difference is they actually condemn those immoral acts, rather then tolerating them.
alexa- and you are right none of us are pure bred american.what i meant by that was im not an asian/arab who was just born there.and i actually do have native american roots but mixed with black and hispanic.
and how i write on a frickin message board doesn't indicate how well my writing is.i don't feel the need to write so formally on a message board
After all we are all human being right, Believing in something doesn't make us any different. And just because some of us choose not to believe and live our life a certain way doesn't make us bad it just makes us different.
Being a Muslim doesn't make you an extremist, Being an atheist doesn't make me any different from dunpeel, we will all end up in the same.
place.
I sometimes tease people of faith, on this site, I don't disrespect them we all have a right to believe in what we want.
The views Of Dunpeel make some people roll their eyes and think not another one, when in fact of course as we all know the people with the biggest objections to anything are always the ones with the loudest voices but the least support.
Aviduser, don't worry we don't all have the same view as Dunpeel and I apologise on behalf of all rational Muslims for his atrocious comment. We all share this world together and have the same ups and downs as everybody else. His kind of comment offends me as a Muslimah.
Hilarious post there well done. I was just thinking that the Muslim world was superior to the West. Then I woke up.
This is really starting to get on my nerves, this false sense of superiority because you choose to believe in something.
All the things described happen in the Muslim world, why, because at the end of the day we are all human no matter what we believe in.
So all the things mentioned go on its just not broadcast, Muslims drink, have sex do drugs cheat on their wives are homosexuals. (obviously not all at the same time).
Of course living in the superior Muslim world if you are caught doing any of these things you are likely to be publicly stoned, beaten, beheaded, hung or ostracised. All for doing things that make us all human.
Muslims or non-muslims, east or west, everyone is doing the same thing whether they'd like to admit it or not. Before pointing someone elses mistakes, let's take a look at our own. It's human psychology that u spot in others what's wrong with u, for example, a fat person will notice all the fat people and will actually make fun of them or be baised against them, it's just because he himself doesn't like that trait in himself. What I'm trying to say, is that we critize other people's faults when we ourselves have them and we KNOW we have them.
Back to having co-ed, some people are saying they're against co-ed for religious reasons. Well didn't God create man and woman equally? So doesn't that mean that He wants us to work side by side? How can we thrive and progress if we don't share ideas and help eachother? I don't understand why some of u are looking at co-ed as male vs. female, when I look at a male friend, I don't think of him as a male but I think of him as a person. When u start seeing people that way all the male-female tension will disappear. Besides we're all there for one purpose: To get ready for the real world, so why should we be seperated ?
Dunpeel, please don't be so superior. You are not portraying a good example of a Muslim by your generalisations about the West.
Co-ed education at any level is absolutely fine under a proper environment. This is not contrary to Islam in my opinion as a Muslimah. I've had experience of a same sex school where most of the time the girls obsessed aboout boys and I've also attended co-ed schools where this was not the case. In the right pastoral and educational environment co-ed is fine.
Islam is very specific when it comes to the mixing of the sexes. There are sharia rules which form part of the social system. I don't expect non muslims to understand this as they carry different ideas and values based upon their belief. Just like non muslims drink alcohol, have boy and girlfirends, condone homosexuality, prostitution, pornography, even swap wives! in the name of democracy, human rights and progress...muslims can never accept such values even though the attempt to export this culture to the muslims world has has gained momentum as part of the wider American War on Islam (called 'War on Terror').
Hence it is of no surprise that the west suffers so much problems at the level of society and no wonder a former president got caught with his pants down because in democracy the instincts are unleashed and society becomes a jungle.
I'm not Arab and as I've said in my previous post QU is no good.and on top of that i don't speak arabic.im american 100% pure bred.so the reason behind me not liking mixed uni isn't for culture reason.it's for religious reasons. but i like i said before everyone has their own opinions. so some might feel better in a mixed uni and other's find it better in the separated uni.
and i have been in mixed clasrooms and settings. and i didn't like it.and if i have to work in a mixed work place i will.
if i have to work in a co-ed environment then so be it.work is something that has to be done. but i have the choice to study in a separated or mixed uni.and i just prefer being in a same sex environment. there are less distractions for me. but like i said everyone is different.
Wow, i never knew THAT could be inferred from my write up. But well, sometimes it does happen, doesnt it? Me for one has seen it happen, though i personally was never involved.
I truly believe that there is no point in making an all-boys or all-girls school. It can only work unless and until you can ensure an all-male or all-female world for them to exist till a persons death.
I studies in a co-ed school till eight standard and then went to an all-boys school for two years. The two formative years of my life. Well, i came out soon after, but had a tough time adjusting back to the real world.
I think co-ed schools SHOULD be popularised. How else would a person know how to interact with the opposite sex? And who says that interacting with the opposite sex can happen only with a vile motive in mind?
With all due respects to everyone involved, being co-ed at the right time of your life (ALL of your schooling years, i meant) is VERY important in defining who you become later in life.
Do you want to be an introvert (like i was after my stint at the all boys school) or an extrovert (like i hope i am now). The choice is yours to make.
I made mine and i will do so ten times out of ten too!
That is my point too how can women expect to mix at work if they didn't mix during their childhood schooling. I think its fair to say that the people asking for same sex schooling are doing for religious reasons, ok fair enough the option probably should be there.
But if a girl does go to the single sex school for these reasons then I will show you a girl who will do well in her exams make her parents proud then marry her second cousin have babies and never work. Actually add may work in the Traffic Licensing Department dressed like a Nija and giggling and talking on her mobile all day instead of serving anyone.
A girl who strives, even fights to go to a Co-ed will be more independently minded and more confident and probably want to put her good skills to test.
Not to be cruel or anything, but hayoonah I honestly doubt you will be accepted into Cambridge/Oxford, unless your parents decide to build them a library or make some outrageous donation.
I am for mixed univs in qatar, then the males will be better acquainted with females as human beings rather than sexual objects.
Just out of curitosity, if you don't feel comfortable enough with men to attend a co-ed school, how do you expect to work in a co-ed environment, or will you just not work? No judgement, just curious.
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I think the difference is cultural there fluffy. Men and women have other opportunities besides school to mingle, from work to hosptial waiting rooms. Here men and women are so seperated that school is probably the only really safe environment where they could possibly mingle. I don't agree with it there either, unless the person has attended co-ed high school previously.
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are these people pressed by culture as well.i don't know about the UK or Canada. but in the US there is a nice number of all boys/girls uni. and these men and women don't come out unprepared for the world. they are quite intelligent. my cousin went to an all boys uni he didn't come out unprepared for the real world. i think you also have take into account the individual's'needs.soso people may feel better studying in an co-educational environment and other's may feel more comfortable studying in a segregated environment.
Tendai, the only bollocks argument here is yours. You are talking as someone who has little to no contact with local women and most certainly doesn't understand the culture all that well. If you did, then you would realize that many of the women are are not "happy" with their lot, the gender segregation and the lack of opportunities they have simply by being born female. However, sadly, they aren't that vocal about yet, especially with a Western man.
I was making a reference to the 3 major religious works with my little joke, the Torah, Bible and Quran. Please quote me the part that says Adam and Eve each got their own Edens and I will happily take back my little joke.
Finally, I was talking about my experience at a high school level. I don't agree with gender segregation at any level, personally, because I believe that we have to learn to work together. Also, I don't know what your definition of uni is, but where I grew up it was a way of preparing you for working in a corporate environment and dealing with the real world. Not many 17 year olds I knew were mentally or educationally prepared to get a job with a major corporation, and handle the responsibilites, uni prepared you for that.
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This is about Universities not schools. I agree that same sex schools are best, or at least it was in my case. I believe that we are different and learn in different ways, and we also mature at different stages, and a same-sex school provides an environment of learning that adaptes best to these differences.
But, again, for universities, Co-education is the only sensible option.
Women in their 40s who went to single-sex schools subsequently had higher incomes than those in mixed classes, a long-term study shows.
Researchers at London University's Institute of Education are tracking almost 13,000 people born in 1958.
They said boys and girls in single-sex schools were less likely to have studied "gender stereotyped" subjects.
This might have accounted for the girls' higher earnings, because actual exam results were no better, they said.
Girls in girls' schools were more likely to have taken sciences and maths at A-level than those in co-educational establishments.
Boys in boys' schools were more likely to have chosen modern languages and English at A-level.
Researcher Dr Alice Sullivan said: "Single-sex schools seemed more likely to encourage students to pursue academic paths according to their talents rather than their gender.
"This suggests that co-educational schools need to examine the ways in which they have, probably unwittingly, enforced powerful gender stereotypes on both girls and boys."
Another member of the research team, Prof Diana Leonard, said the single-sex schoolgirls' higher earnings might have been because they were filling more technical or scientific roles even within female-dominated jobs.
"For example, becoming science teachers rather than French teachers, or because they have learned to be more self-confident in negotiating their wages and salaries."
The real world: a society where men and women interact at work in a professional manner. Yes, that´s my real world. Maybe yours is similar to BBK´s world where there are different cities for men and women.
I´m not all for co-education in schools, having spent the first 15 years of my life in an all girls environment, I understand that it has some benefits too.
But we are talking about Universities here, Tendai. Intelligent and mature women that have high aspirations of becoming doctors, lawyers, economists, managers, pilots etc and their co-workers, bosses and hopefully subordinates will be men. If you think that´s against the cultural and religious identity of Qatar, then I suggest you take a longer and wiser look around. This is not Saudi where women are only allowed to perform certain duties.
"The real world for millions of Muslims IS gender segregated" Now that´s BS, unless you are talking about some kind of Taliban where educating women (or men for that matter) is not a priority.
As far as I´m concerned, Universities are to educate people in the real world and co-education is the only option. And no more needs to be said.
to work also together with the environment of a man.. so this the good opportunity to mingle with men.. the CULTURE and dignity will always be there you know.. it will be depending on the person how she will REACT with the changes or phase on her environment...
""Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.-by Franklin D. Roosevelt""
Well yes Cornellian, in the way that when women didn't HAVE to work it grew over the years into women not being allowed to work by their father/husband. It's oppression and wrong. I'm lucky that my family respect us as human beings to ever tell each other what we are and are not allowed to do.
One tends to find similar forms of social control in societies in this part of the world. Think Egypt...in the sixties it was all beehives and mini skirts then there was a conservative backlash against it so the society tends to be more conservative at the moment.
Or Iran pre crazy so called Islamic revolution (that's an insult to Islam in my opinion).
Hopefully there won't be a backlash here if change is balanced between progress and preserving the true heritage of the culture.
oooo that's interesting diamondgirl, I didn't know women used to work with men over here. I thought this segregation always existed. So what ur saying is money made Qatar more conserved? (in a way)
Tendai, these co-ed unis do not infringe on practising Islam It is permitted in the religion to study and work alongside men. Qatar does offer both segregation and co-ed education at tertiary level. Culturally there is segregation but this is fairly recent and has largely come with wealth and was not connected to the religion in the way fundamentalists will have one believe. For example, it was commonplace for women to work in the souq and other places to earn a living. Then came wealth in the form of oil and gas and women paid men to work in their shops or in the fish/veg market and retreated home out of the heat! (Then they paid housekeepers and stopped doing houswork but that's another story!!!)
It's interesting that u mentioned the point that "here the boys will die to see a muslim's hair, because it's not normal and here, in qatar, they have this bluetooth thing and make fun of girls." because I assure u in the co-ed universities here....NONE of that happens, nothing even close!
The males in the co-ed universities are very different from most of the male population u've seen here. They are definitely not sex-craved, u will not be harrassed and they most definitely will not die to see ur hair because there are alot of girls who don't wear scarfs.
It's sad that u have such a negative image about the male students in Qatar. U should really meet some and I'm sure u'll change ur mind.
Hayoonah, if this is indeed what is happening then surely we should carry on with co-ed until this behaviour will stop. It is because it is so new and uncharted that makes it so 'exciting' at the moment. Be proud to be part of the early years of this.
I've been in mixed classroom settings before so it's not that im afraid or unpopular around males. its just for religious reasons i feel better in a all girls environment. and i can't go to QU because i don't speak arabic(im not even arab). and a QU degree is no good back home(the states) anyway.
You guys have been misunderstood, my parents think it's fine to study in a mixed university, except that i'd be better off with british people and study with them than qatari. There in britain they don't tease a women wearing a scarf, it's fine, unlike qatar, here the boys will die to see a muslim's hair, because it's not normal and here, in qatar, they have this bluetooth thing and make fun of girls.
god....i can't believe you've misunderstood the situation so badly!!
It never ceases to amaze me how arrogant westerners can be sometimes. The assumption that 'progress' carries a western looking definition is in my mind typical of the thinking that gives credence to the idea that if it ain't white, it ain't right.
Butterfly - 'We are talking about educating people to be able to operate in the real world'. Whose? Yours? The real world for millions of Muslims IS gender segregated. Their reality, rightly or wrongly, is very different to yours. The idea that most Muslim women (for example) are by and large oppressed and depressed is frankly bollocks. I have met many an educated Muslim woman who understand their reality and would choose it, over any alternative. They find and enjoy educated expression within the religious and cultural parameters they freely subscribe to. So if I may.. with all due respect... much more needs to be said.
Gypsy - 'I love the "It's in our religion" argument. Last time I checked God didn't give Adam and Eve their own seperate Edens.'
Exactly what did you check? Seriously. Check again, then check yourself.
Am I for or against mixed universities in Qatar? I'm for that solution that accounts for (and celebrates!) Qatar's unique religious and cultural identity in her berth as an emerging gulf economic powerhouse. I'm for any solution she defines by herself, for herself... especially if it happens to put two fingers up at those who think they know better, just because they're not Arab.
And by the way Gypsy, by the time you get to uni, you're expected to already be an adult. The point of this tertiary level of education is first and foremost to confer certificates or accreditations that prove successful completion of an advanced course or dscipline. Yours is a high school definition wrongly applied. Your experience in 'schools' is therefore irrelevant to the debate - unless you use school to mean university. Do you?
And that is what the gov has done. Qatar Uni is segregated. The US unis that are here will not offer segregation due to their equal oppurtnities policies. If you consider the Qatari population to be around 200 000 (remembering that these unis are here initially for the benefit of Qataris) and a typical percentage of people going to the kind of US unis we have here, we are looking at less than ten per cent of the population attending. And that is being generous. so we're talking about maximum 20 000 local people. other nationalities must be included as they live here and contribute to the country. With all this in mind then it is not practically possible to offer three versions (mixed, female, male) of each uni. This does not happen around the world either. there is not three versions of Harvard.
Choice should be with the individual. Both (segregated and mixed) univ. should be made available by the govt and choice should be left with the individual to choose whatever she/he feels comfortable with.
To a certain extent as a local I do understand people's concern. Segregation is how many have lived their lives and change is happening so this can be scarey. On the other hand, people have short memories...there weren't that many people wearing the abayaa generation or so ago and women were routinely in the workplace if you research the history of the Gulf.
I'm counting on like-minded locals to keep on embracing good changes whilst retaining the essence of our culture.
Face it this is the 21st Century, women will have to mix with men eventually, this will generally be in the workplace. Better to get used to men now rather than later.
Mixed Universities are a good thing, its progress. Qatar wants to be seen as a forward looking country this has to be a step in the right direction.
I'm for mixed University's. The whole point of university, and school in general, is to prepare someone for life in the adult world, so what is the point if you only learn to work with and relate to one gender?
I've worked in both mixed and segregated schools and the difference between them is pretty dramatic. The girls and boys in segregated schools are if anything far more fascinated and obessesed with the opposite sex then those in mixed classes, and are very naiive about the opposite sex as well. Frankly I think it creates an unnatural and potentially dangerous situation.
Men and women are meant to learn to function together, not seperate from each other.
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Fluffy123 Qatar Uni is segregated so you could go there. Think about it, the QF unis here are small, practically speaking, so to have two separate ones would not work. Also it's an equal opportunities issue, isn't it?
Can I be cheeky and ask if you can't be trusted amongst males??? Or do you family forbid this for you? If so I'm sorry for you.
Ok I'm going to go on a bit with this one as I'm a female, a Qataria, and a Muslimah and some people here are writing a load of nonsense!!!
Hayoonah, I'm sorry you can't thank HH Sheikha Mozah for her initiatives. She has done more for girls and women in this country in the last ten years than has been done in the last ten hundred years. No-one is forced to go to co-ed unis here but the opportunity has been presented to us in our own country. The US unis here are really great and as Cornellian said there is a terrific atmosphere of vitality and learning going on. Thank you Sheikha Mozah!!!
Ala7mad79, although co-ed is relatively new for our country it is not necessarily a bad thing. It gives us more opportunity and promise for our nation of people. My parents have raised their daughters to be open to the world and all the good things it has to offer. We have been taught well what is right and wrong for us as a family. My parents do not control us to the extent that they would deny us a wondeerful learning opportunity. We as women are not going to flush our respect, honour and good name down the toilet because we study and work with men. In return the men I have studied and worked with have been very normal...not one sex-crazed lunatic amongst them. I think you would find this is the norm and that every society has a few nutters who are the opposite of this. Back when 'the west' introduced co-ed schools and unis it was quite a scandal but everyone realised that human beings are to be trusted and not controlled and it all worked out. And it is doing that here.
Change is good and to be embraced given the right situation. I would hate to think that anyone would deny their sons and daughters their dreams. My family are working hard to realise their hopes and dreams in the world within the tenets (sp?) of our religion and working alongside the opposite sex is a normal part of that. It may be worth considering that that which is forbidden will be done in secrecy and abnormally. It's all about people having the right to choose and this goes right back to Allah as he has given people free will in the hope that they will choose wisely how to live their life. It's not about control.
i would love to go to university in Qatar. but they are all mixed! i was planning to go to VCU but they are going co-ed next year.so much for that. its funny because back in the states they have all girls and all boys universities as well mixed.there is variety but yet in a Muslim country they have none.what an irony!
i guess the only way for me to go to a separated uni is to go back to the states.
So if ur against it then how are u going to go to Britain where universities are mixed? hmmm that doesn't make any sense, but anyways it's ur business. Best of luck :-)
Male students(most of them anyways) here are very respectable compared to students I've met elsewhere. Actually, most students in the co-ed universities here have been in co-ed high schools so it seems normal to them and aren't sex-crazed or anything. Thanks diamondgirl for the clarification, it is definitely not the religion that prevents it but the culture.
allright.. i see where this is going..anyway, maybe i was misinformed but anyhow, i still am against and forever will be. Thanks everyone 4 your co-orporation.Besides,i've made my decision to where i'm studying. I'l study in Britian, probably Oxford or Cambrige, but not Mixed uni. in Qatar...thats for sure.
VCU is currently female students only but going co-ed this autumn I think. They have recruited a Qatari male to facilitate this.
Haynooh as a Muslimah myself I can with utter confidence say that it is not Islam which prevents co-ed, it is the culture of some families. Women and men can work beside each other in a respectful way in Islam which is how the world over does it.
Incidently I think Qatar Academy on the Qatar Foundation site has segregation of pupils at some point in high school.
I guess it mostly depends on the attitudes and behaviours of the male students, whether they can be respectful of their female classmates, or whether, when entering a co-ed environment for the first time they turn into amoral sex-crazed lunatics.
Sweeping generalisation here, but it's usually the men who treat women in a degrading fashion and not the reverse, so it depends on whether the young men can behave with some semblance of decorum.
Ok let's get something straight. If these girls have strong values to begin with, then no matter where they are and who they are with, these values should not change.
Let's say all the universities were seperated, what about their jobs? They will be mixed. What will they do then? Lock themselves at home because they're too scared to be around men?
And one more thing, religion does not prevent mixed universities! That's just nonsense!
I haven't heard about Clinton's prize but if he did offer it then I'll tell u why. U see Qatar and America are completely different when it comes to culture. America is way too open, and that might've caused corruption and so a solution would be to seperate the genders in hopes that there will be less trouble. That would be the only reason for Cliton to offer such a prize.
Qatar, on the other hand, was too conserved, and would prevent it from progressing, so a solution is to have mixed universitied in the hopes of opening people's minds and making the country more modernized.
I advise for both of u to go visit the universities first before stating ur opinion because u'll find out that it's an amazing environment.
And haynooh, what critizism are u talking about ?? :S
I thank sheikah Moza 4 what she did, but still, mixing gender can actually ruin and destroy these young girls' values believe it or not..
Half of the girls in my school are worried about the current mixed universities, in addition, our relegion prevents that!! and no thanks 2 technology, they made it even easier.. 4 boys to scandle girls(whatever)..
so always here the story in both ways..
Besides some of the girl's parents r strict and worried about their daughter's future so they force them 2 go to Qatar University 4 girls... it's so lame!!
I'm mathematician and statistician at the same time ,don't give an examples .. i'll not argue with u about majarity and minority and examples and so on... and who knows the culture who knows the values here in qatar and what is accepted and what is unaccepted these thing cornellian needs "horizon" to understand it , to analyse the axis !! these things need to somebody knows the culture very well.. don't give examples even these examples could not be measured..
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The fact is neither of u are in a mixed university here in Qatar. I am and I know for a fact that it has helped Qatar in so many ways.
There are Qatari girls in these mixed universities and there are alot of muslim girls too. And it has neither ruined the society nor destroyed their values. Instead it has helped all these young muslim and non-muslim men and women in broadening their minds. The mixed universities here are so culturally diverse and so intelluctally open minded that all the students have learned so much. It's a wonderful atmosphere, and it's only postively helping the Qatari culture in progressing.
Qatar was blessed with the day that Sheikha Moza decided to have all these universities.
when we ask such question u've asked about the mix . we try to ask the people who understand our culture very well. so the answer is realy clear... no mixed in our culture if the mix would cause some troubles.. u and me and all understand this very well too.
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I've said so many times .. the culture here is totally different.. so this will not help .. on the contrary .. the mix will ruin the society will destroy the values and custom..we cann't apply other experience on our country or in each country.. each country has it own rules , custom , values .. and definitely own culture .
the is fact cornellain :)
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Hey, slow down, i'm talking about the mixed universities in qatar, and whether its good 4 the muslim young women or not, and if it's appropriate or not.
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Segregrate by all means in:
1. Nursery.
2. Kindergarten.
3. School.
4. College.
5. Work.
6. Home.
7. Public Place.
8. Shops & Malls.
9. Restaurants.
10. Segregate & monitor communication ...boys & girls can use phones to talk to each other ...& talk dirty..u know!!!
11. Everything else included.
Segregate for life
Muslims are not suppose to drink,commit fornication or commit other immoral acts.but some do.but it still doesn't make it right nor Islamic. but i think the difference is they actually condemn those immoral acts, rather then tolerating them.
alexa- and you are right none of us are pure bred american.what i meant by that was im not an asian/arab who was just born there.and i actually do have native american roots but mixed with black and hispanic.
and how i write on a frickin message board doesn't indicate how well my writing is.i don't feel the need to write so formally on a message board
I'm already accepted...daaaa..
Oxford!!!
After all we are all human being right, Believing in something doesn't make us any different. And just because some of us choose not to believe and live our life a certain way doesn't make us bad it just makes us different.
Being a Muslim doesn't make you an extremist, Being an atheist doesn't make me any different from dunpeel, we will all end up in the same.
place.
I sometimes tease people of faith, on this site, I don't disrespect them we all have a right to believe in what we want.
The views Of Dunpeel make some people roll their eyes and think not another one, when in fact of course as we all know the people with the biggest objections to anything are always the ones with the loudest voices but the least support.
Aviduser, don't worry we don't all have the same view as Dunpeel and I apologise on behalf of all rational Muslims for his atrocious comment. We all share this world together and have the same ups and downs as everybody else. His kind of comment offends me as a Muslimah.
Hilarious post there well done. I was just thinking that the Muslim world was superior to the West. Then I woke up.
This is really starting to get on my nerves, this false sense of superiority because you choose to believe in something.
All the things described happen in the Muslim world, why, because at the end of the day we are all human no matter what we believe in.
So all the things mentioned go on its just not broadcast, Muslims drink, have sex do drugs cheat on their wives are homosexuals. (obviously not all at the same time).
Of course living in the superior Muslim world if you are caught doing any of these things you are likely to be publicly stoned, beaten, beheaded, hung or ostracised. All for doing things that make us all human.
Muslims or non-muslims, east or west, everyone is doing the same thing whether they'd like to admit it or not. Before pointing someone elses mistakes, let's take a look at our own. It's human psychology that u spot in others what's wrong with u, for example, a fat person will notice all the fat people and will actually make fun of them or be baised against them, it's just because he himself doesn't like that trait in himself. What I'm trying to say, is that we critize other people's faults when we ourselves have them and we KNOW we have them.
Back to having co-ed, some people are saying they're against co-ed for religious reasons. Well didn't God create man and woman equally? So doesn't that mean that He wants us to work side by side? How can we thrive and progress if we don't share ideas and help eachother? I don't understand why some of u are looking at co-ed as male vs. female, when I look at a male friend, I don't think of him as a male but I think of him as a person. When u start seeing people that way all the male-female tension will disappear. Besides we're all there for one purpose: To get ready for the real world, so why should we be seperated ?
but PM you sound like you are REAL. thats what I hope I am'too or how can one relate to others???
Dunpeel, please don't be so superior. You are not portraying a good example of a Muslim by your generalisations about the West.
Co-ed education at any level is absolutely fine under a proper environment. This is not contrary to Islam in my opinion as a Muslimah. I've had experience of a same sex school where most of the time the girls obsessed aboout boys and I've also attended co-ed schools where this was not the case. In the right pastoral and educational environment co-ed is fine.
Islam is very specific when it comes to the mixing of the sexes. There are sharia rules which form part of the social system. I don't expect non muslims to understand this as they carry different ideas and values based upon their belief. Just like non muslims drink alcohol, have boy and girlfirends, condone homosexuality, prostitution, pornography, even swap wives! in the name of democracy, human rights and progress...muslims can never accept such values even though the attempt to export this culture to the muslims world has has gained momentum as part of the wider American War on Islam (called 'War on Terror').
Hence it is of no surprise that the west suffers so much problems at the level of society and no wonder a former president got caught with his pants down because in democracy the instincts are unleashed and society becomes a jungle.
I'm not Arab and as I've said in my previous post QU is no good.and on top of that i don't speak arabic.im american 100% pure bred.so the reason behind me not liking mixed uni isn't for culture reason.it's for religious reasons. but i like i said before everyone has their own opinions. so some might feel better in a mixed uni and other's find it better in the separated uni.
and i have been in mixed clasrooms and settings. and i didn't like it.and if i have to work in a mixed work place i will.
if i have to work in a co-ed environment then so be it.work is something that has to be done. but i have the choice to study in a separated or mixed uni.and i just prefer being in a same sex environment. there are less distractions for me. but like i said everyone is different.
And of course the Qatari's are trying their best to create such a world don't you think and Saudi is right there.
Wow, i never knew THAT could be inferred from my write up. But well, sometimes it does happen, doesnt it? Me for one has seen it happen, though i personally was never involved.
I truly believe that there is no point in making an all-boys or all-girls school. It can only work unless and until you can ensure an all-male or all-female world for them to exist till a persons death.
The exercise is so futile. I feel so.
triple post, sigh!
double post
Are you implying that same sex schools could be responsible for,whisper it, same sex experimentation ?.
I have heard that sort of thing is rampant here, but whisper it, slightly hushed up.....accepted as part of growing up....
I studies in a co-ed school till eight standard and then went to an all-boys school for two years. The two formative years of my life. Well, i came out soon after, but had a tough time adjusting back to the real world.
I think co-ed schools SHOULD be popularised. How else would a person know how to interact with the opposite sex? And who says that interacting with the opposite sex can happen only with a vile motive in mind?
With all due respects to everyone involved, being co-ed at the right time of your life (ALL of your schooling years, i meant) is VERY important in defining who you become later in life.
Do you want to be an introvert (like i was after my stint at the all boys school) or an extrovert (like i hope i am now). The choice is yours to make.
I made mine and i will do so ten times out of ten too!
Rise of single sex schools in the USA.
Rise of Religious Right Wing Nut jobs in the USA and White House. Coincidence ??
That is my point too how can women expect to mix at work if they didn't mix during their childhood schooling. I think its fair to say that the people asking for same sex schooling are doing for religious reasons, ok fair enough the option probably should be there.
But if a girl does go to the single sex school for these reasons then I will show you a girl who will do well in her exams make her parents proud then marry her second cousin have babies and never work. Actually add may work in the Traffic Licensing Department dressed like a Nija and giggling and talking on her mobile all day instead of serving anyone.
A girl who strives, even fights to go to a Co-ed will be more independently minded and more confident and probably want to put her good skills to test.
Not to be cruel or anything, but hayoonah I honestly doubt you will be accepted into Cambridge/Oxford, unless your parents decide to build them a library or make some outrageous donation.
I am for mixed univs in qatar, then the males will be better acquainted with females as human beings rather than sexual objects.
Just out of curitosity, if you don't feel comfortable enough with men to attend a co-ed school, how do you expect to work in a co-ed environment, or will you just not work? No judgement, just curious.
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I think the difference is cultural there fluffy. Men and women have other opportunities besides school to mingle, from work to hosptial waiting rooms. Here men and women are so seperated that school is probably the only really safe environment where they could possibly mingle. I don't agree with it there either, unless the person has attended co-ed high school previously.
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are these people pressed by culture as well.i don't know about the UK or Canada. but in the US there is a nice number of all boys/girls uni. and these men and women don't come out unprepared for the world. they are quite intelligent. my cousin went to an all boys uni he didn't come out unprepared for the real world. i think you also have take into account the individual's'needs.soso people may feel better studying in an co-educational environment and other's may feel more comfortable studying in a segregated environment.
Tendai, the only bollocks argument here is yours. You are talking as someone who has little to no contact with local women and most certainly doesn't understand the culture all that well. If you did, then you would realize that many of the women are are not "happy" with their lot, the gender segregation and the lack of opportunities they have simply by being born female. However, sadly, they aren't that vocal about yet, especially with a Western man.
I was making a reference to the 3 major religious works with my little joke, the Torah, Bible and Quran. Please quote me the part that says Adam and Eve each got their own Edens and I will happily take back my little joke.
Finally, I was talking about my experience at a high school level. I don't agree with gender segregation at any level, personally, because I believe that we have to learn to work together. Also, I don't know what your definition of uni is, but where I grew up it was a way of preparing you for working in a corporate environment and dealing with the real world. Not many 17 year olds I knew were mentally or educationally prepared to get a job with a major corporation, and handle the responsibilites, uni prepared you for that.
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Read the topic.
This is about Universities not schools. I agree that same sex schools are best, or at least it was in my case. I believe that we are different and learn in different ways, and we also mature at different stages, and a same-sex school provides an environment of learning that adaptes best to these differences.
But, again, for universities, Co-education is the only sensible option.
Women in their 40s who went to single-sex schools subsequently had higher incomes than those in mixed classes, a long-term study shows.
Researchers at London University's Institute of Education are tracking almost 13,000 people born in 1958.
They said boys and girls in single-sex schools were less likely to have studied "gender stereotyped" subjects.
This might have accounted for the girls' higher earnings, because actual exam results were no better, they said.
Girls in girls' schools were more likely to have taken sciences and maths at A-level than those in co-educational establishments.
Boys in boys' schools were more likely to have chosen modern languages and English at A-level.
Researcher Dr Alice Sullivan said: "Single-sex schools seemed more likely to encourage students to pursue academic paths according to their talents rather than their gender.
"This suggests that co-educational schools need to examine the ways in which they have, probably unwittingly, enforced powerful gender stereotypes on both girls and boys."
Another member of the research team, Prof Diana Leonard, said the single-sex schoolgirls' higher earnings might have been because they were filling more technical or scientific roles even within female-dominated jobs.
"For example, becoming science teachers rather than French teachers, or because they have learned to be more self-confident in negotiating their wages and salaries."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/5370970.stm
CO-education is never the only option. IF thats the case why is there a new popularity for same sex schools in U.S?
The real world: a society where men and women interact at work in a professional manner. Yes, that´s my real world. Maybe yours is similar to BBK´s world where there are different cities for men and women.
I´m not all for co-education in schools, having spent the first 15 years of my life in an all girls environment, I understand that it has some benefits too.
But we are talking about Universities here, Tendai. Intelligent and mature women that have high aspirations of becoming doctors, lawyers, economists, managers, pilots etc and their co-workers, bosses and hopefully subordinates will be men. If you think that´s against the cultural and religious identity of Qatar, then I suggest you take a longer and wiser look around. This is not Saudi where women are only allowed to perform certain duties.
"The real world for millions of Muslims IS gender segregated" Now that´s BS, unless you are talking about some kind of Taliban where educating women (or men for that matter) is not a priority.
As far as I´m concerned, Universities are to educate people in the real world and co-education is the only option. And no more needs to be said.
to work also together with the environment of a man.. so this the good opportunity to mingle with men.. the CULTURE and dignity will always be there you know.. it will be depending on the person how she will REACT with the changes or phase on her environment...
""Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.-by Franklin D. Roosevelt""
Well yes Cornellian, in the way that when women didn't HAVE to work it grew over the years into women not being allowed to work by their father/husband. It's oppression and wrong. I'm lucky that my family respect us as human beings to ever tell each other what we are and are not allowed to do.
One tends to find similar forms of social control in societies in this part of the world. Think Egypt...in the sixties it was all beehives and mini skirts then there was a conservative backlash against it so the society tends to be more conservative at the moment.
Or Iran pre crazy so called Islamic revolution (that's an insult to Islam in my opinion).
Hopefully there won't be a backlash here if change is balanced between progress and preserving the true heritage of the culture.
oooo that's interesting diamondgirl, I didn't know women used to work with men over here. I thought this segregation always existed. So what ur saying is money made Qatar more conserved? (in a way)
Tendai, these co-ed unis do not infringe on practising Islam It is permitted in the religion to study and work alongside men. Qatar does offer both segregation and co-ed education at tertiary level. Culturally there is segregation but this is fairly recent and has largely come with wealth and was not connected to the religion in the way fundamentalists will have one believe. For example, it was commonplace for women to work in the souq and other places to earn a living. Then came wealth in the form of oil and gas and women paid men to work in their shops or in the fish/veg market and retreated home out of the heat! (Then they paid housekeepers and stopped doing houswork but that's another story!!!)
It's interesting that u mentioned the point that "here the boys will die to see a muslim's hair, because it's not normal and here, in qatar, they have this bluetooth thing and make fun of girls." because I assure u in the co-ed universities here....NONE of that happens, nothing even close!
The males in the co-ed universities are very different from most of the male population u've seen here. They are definitely not sex-craved, u will not be harrassed and they most definitely will not die to see ur hair because there are alot of girls who don't wear scarfs.
It's sad that u have such a negative image about the male students in Qatar. U should really meet some and I'm sure u'll change ur mind.
Hayoonah, if this is indeed what is happening then surely we should carry on with co-ed until this behaviour will stop. It is because it is so new and uncharted that makes it so 'exciting' at the moment. Be proud to be part of the early years of this.
I've been in mixed classroom settings before so it's not that im afraid or unpopular around males. its just for religious reasons i feel better in a all girls environment. and i can't go to QU because i don't speak arabic(im not even arab). and a QU degree is no good back home(the states) anyway.
You guys have been misunderstood, my parents think it's fine to study in a mixed university, except that i'd be better off with british people and study with them than qatari. There in britain they don't tease a women wearing a scarf, it's fine, unlike qatar, here the boys will die to see a muslim's hair, because it's not normal and here, in qatar, they have this bluetooth thing and make fun of girls.
god....i can't believe you've misunderstood the situation so badly!!
get a grip u guys!!!!!
realities is also a mistake.
It never ceases to amaze me how arrogant westerners can be sometimes. The assumption that 'progress' carries a western looking definition is in my mind typical of the thinking that gives credence to the idea that if it ain't white, it ain't right.
Butterfly - 'We are talking about educating people to be able to operate in the real world'. Whose? Yours? The real world for millions of Muslims IS gender segregated. Their reality, rightly or wrongly, is very different to yours. The idea that most Muslim women (for example) are by and large oppressed and depressed is frankly bollocks. I have met many an educated Muslim woman who understand their reality and would choose it, over any alternative. They find and enjoy educated expression within the religious and cultural parameters they freely subscribe to. So if I may.. with all due respect... much more needs to be said.
Gypsy - 'I love the "It's in our religion" argument. Last time I checked God didn't give Adam and Eve their own seperate Edens.'
Exactly what did you check? Seriously. Check again, then check yourself.
Am I for or against mixed universities in Qatar? I'm for that solution that accounts for (and celebrates!) Qatar's unique religious and cultural identity in her berth as an emerging gulf economic powerhouse. I'm for any solution she defines by herself, for herself... especially if it happens to put two fingers up at those who think they know better, just because they're not Arab.
And by the way Gypsy, by the time you get to uni, you're expected to already be an adult. The point of this tertiary level of education is first and foremost to confer certificates or accreditations that prove successful completion of an advanced course or dscipline. Yours is a high school definition wrongly applied. Your experience in 'schools' is therefore irrelevant to the debate - unless you use school to mean university. Do you?
And that is what the gov has done. Qatar Uni is segregated. The US unis that are here will not offer segregation due to their equal oppurtnities policies. If you consider the Qatari population to be around 200 000 (remembering that these unis are here initially for the benefit of Qataris) and a typical percentage of people going to the kind of US unis we have here, we are looking at less than ten per cent of the population attending. And that is being generous. so we're talking about maximum 20 000 local people. other nationalities must be included as they live here and contribute to the country. With all this in mind then it is not practically possible to offer three versions (mixed, female, male) of each uni. This does not happen around the world either. there is not three versions of Harvard.
Choice should be with the individual. Both (segregated and mixed) univ. should be made available by the govt and choice should be left with the individual to choose whatever she/he feels comfortable with.
To a certain extent as a local I do understand people's concern. Segregation is how many have lived their lives and change is happening so this can be scarey. On the other hand, people have short memories...there weren't that many people wearing the abayaa generation or so ago and women were routinely in the workplace if you research the history of the Gulf.
I'm counting on like-minded locals to keep on embracing good changes whilst retaining the essence of our culture.
I was having my lunch in mixed company...ooh wanton woman! It's OK we all kept control of ourselves.
I love the "It's in our religion" argument. Last time I checked God didn't give Adam and Eve their own seperate Edens. :P
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We are talking about educating people to be able to operate in the real world.
No more needs to be said.
Woohoo finally some support! Where were u guys all morning when I needed u??? lol, yep I agree with all of u :-)
Face it this is the 21st Century, women will have to mix with men eventually, this will generally be in the workplace. Better to get used to men now rather than later.
Mixed Universities are a good thing, its progress. Qatar wants to be seen as a forward looking country this has to be a step in the right direction.
I'm for mixed University's. The whole point of university, and school in general, is to prepare someone for life in the adult world, so what is the point if you only learn to work with and relate to one gender?
I've worked in both mixed and segregated schools and the difference between them is pretty dramatic. The girls and boys in segregated schools are if anything far more fascinated and obessesed with the opposite sex then those in mixed classes, and are very naiive about the opposite sex as well. Frankly I think it creates an unnatural and potentially dangerous situation.
Men and women are meant to learn to function together, not seperate from each other.
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Fluffy123 Qatar Uni is segregated so you could go there. Think about it, the QF unis here are small, practically speaking, so to have two separate ones would not work. Also it's an equal opportunities issue, isn't it?
Can I be cheeky and ask if you can't be trusted amongst males??? Or do you family forbid this for you? If so I'm sorry for you.
Ok I'm going to go on a bit with this one as I'm a female, a Qataria, and a Muslimah and some people here are writing a load of nonsense!!!
Hayoonah, I'm sorry you can't thank HH Sheikha Mozah for her initiatives. She has done more for girls and women in this country in the last ten years than has been done in the last ten hundred years. No-one is forced to go to co-ed unis here but the opportunity has been presented to us in our own country. The US unis here are really great and as Cornellian said there is a terrific atmosphere of vitality and learning going on. Thank you Sheikha Mozah!!!
Ala7mad79, although co-ed is relatively new for our country it is not necessarily a bad thing. It gives us more opportunity and promise for our nation of people. My parents have raised their daughters to be open to the world and all the good things it has to offer. We have been taught well what is right and wrong for us as a family. My parents do not control us to the extent that they would deny us a wondeerful learning opportunity. We as women are not going to flush our respect, honour and good name down the toilet because we study and work with men. In return the men I have studied and worked with have been very normal...not one sex-crazed lunatic amongst them. I think you would find this is the norm and that every society has a few nutters who are the opposite of this. Back when 'the west' introduced co-ed schools and unis it was quite a scandal but everyone realised that human beings are to be trusted and not controlled and it all worked out. And it is doing that here.
Change is good and to be embraced given the right situation. I would hate to think that anyone would deny their sons and daughters their dreams. My family are working hard to realise their hopes and dreams in the world within the tenets (sp?) of our religion and working alongside the opposite sex is a normal part of that. It may be worth considering that that which is forbidden will be done in secrecy and abnormally. It's all about people having the right to choose and this goes right back to Allah as he has given people free will in the hope that they will choose wisely how to live their life. It's not about control.
OK, that's my ramble for what it's worth!
i would love to go to university in Qatar. but they are all mixed! i was planning to go to VCU but they are going co-ed next year.so much for that. its funny because back in the states they have all girls and all boys universities as well mixed.there is variety but yet in a Muslim country they have none.what an irony!
i guess the only way for me to go to a separated uni is to go back to the states.
he-llo...Oxbridge are co-ed...hayoonah habibti you're not making sense!
So if ur against it then how are u going to go to Britain where universities are mixed? hmmm that doesn't make any sense, but anyways it's ur business. Best of luck :-)
Male students(most of them anyways) here are very respectable compared to students I've met elsewhere. Actually, most students in the co-ed universities here have been in co-ed high schools so it seems normal to them and aren't sex-crazed or anything. Thanks diamondgirl for the clarification, it is definitely not the religion that prevents it but the culture.
allright.. i see where this is going..anyway, maybe i was misinformed but anyhow, i still am against and forever will be. Thanks everyone 4 your co-orporation.Besides,i've made my decision to where i'm studying. I'l study in Britian, probably Oxford or Cambrige, but not Mixed uni. in Qatar...thats for sure.
Thanks everone..
VCU is currently female students only but going co-ed this autumn I think. They have recruited a Qatari male to facilitate this.
Haynooh as a Muslimah myself I can with utter confidence say that it is not Islam which prevents co-ed, it is the culture of some families. Women and men can work beside each other in a respectful way in Islam which is how the world over does it.
Incidently I think Qatar Academy on the Qatar Foundation site has segregation of pupils at some point in high school.
I guess it mostly depends on the attitudes and behaviours of the male students, whether they can be respectful of their female classmates, or whether, when entering a co-ed environment for the first time they turn into amoral sex-crazed lunatics.
Sweeping generalisation here, but it's usually the men who treat women in a degrading fashion and not the reverse, so it depends on whether the young men can behave with some semblance of decorum.
Qatar foundation campuses are mixed. Nothing will ever change that.
If that doesn’t suit you, go to Qatar university (it’s not bad you know). QU faculties after the accreditation are improving.
You must remember one thing though, that after graduation you’ll be working in a mixed environment.
Ok let's get something straight. If these girls have strong values to begin with, then no matter where they are and who they are with, these values should not change.
Let's say all the universities were seperated, what about their jobs? They will be mixed. What will they do then? Lock themselves at home because they're too scared to be around men?
And one more thing, religion does not prevent mixed universities! That's just nonsense!
I haven't heard about Clinton's prize but if he did offer it then I'll tell u why. U see Qatar and America are completely different when it comes to culture. America is way too open, and that might've caused corruption and so a solution would be to seperate the genders in hopes that there will be less trouble. That would be the only reason for Cliton to offer such a prize.
Qatar, on the other hand, was too conserved, and would prevent it from progressing, so a solution is to have mixed universitied in the hopes of opening people's minds and making the country more modernized.
I advise for both of u to go visit the universities first before stating ur opinion because u'll find out that it's an amazing environment.
And haynooh, what critizism are u talking about ?? :S
I thank sheikah Moza 4 what she did, but still, mixing gender can actually ruin and destroy these young girls' values believe it or not..
Half of the girls in my school are worried about the current mixed universities, in addition, our relegion prevents that!! and no thanks 2 technology, they made it even easier.. 4 boys to scandle girls(whatever)..
so always here the story in both ways..
Besides some of the girl's parents r strict and worried about their daughter's future so they force them 2 go to Qatar University 4 girls... it's so lame!!
I'm mathematician and statistician at the same time ,don't give an examples .. i'll not argue with u about majarity and minority and examples and so on... and who knows the culture who knows the values here in qatar and what is accepted and what is unaccepted these thing cornellian needs "horizon" to understand it , to analyse the axis !! these things need to somebody knows the culture very well.. don't give examples even these examples could not be measured..
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Sure universities should be mixed
The fact is neither of u are in a mixed university here in Qatar. I am and I know for a fact that it has helped Qatar in so many ways.
There are Qatari girls in these mixed universities and there are alot of muslim girls too. And it has neither ruined the society nor destroyed their values. Instead it has helped all these young muslim and non-muslim men and women in broadening their minds. The mixed universities here are so culturally diverse and so intelluctally open minded that all the students have learned so much. It's a wonderful atmosphere, and it's only postively helping the Qatari culture in progressing.
Qatar was blessed with the day that Sheikha Moza decided to have all these universities.
when we ask such question u've asked about the mix . we try to ask the people who understand our culture very well. so the answer is realy clear... no mixed in our culture if the mix would cause some troubles.. u and me and all understand this very well too.
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Did u know that Clinton, america's old president offered a financial prize for those who seperate the two genders togather..
why can't qatar seperate both genders so that the girls can be more confident away from critisems!!!
I've said so many times .. the culture here is totally different.. so this will not help .. on the contrary .. the mix will ruin the society will destroy the values and custom..we cann't apply other experience on our country or in each country.. each country has it own rules , custom , values .. and definitely own culture .
the is fact cornellain :)
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Hey, slow down, i'm talking about the mixed universities in qatar, and whether its good 4 the muslim young women or not, and if it's appropriate or not.
please be considerate.
Definitely with mixed universities, why would we be against them ?
Because i've already studied in mixed uni. :)
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