Cause and Effect !

don't hit on the naillllllllllllllll

Interestingly Mohamed was the first prophet to marry faith and war together and this lead to the successful and aggressive expansion of the Arab empire and with it the spread of Islam. Marrying faith and war together was a stroke of genius and gave the fighters not just glory to fight for but something 'higher'. This concept with live with today through some misguided fools who think they are doing gods work.

n which work did they do in iraq and afghanistan

Which form is more important?

I put a small quote here:

"In this day and Age is Jihad Fard on every able bodied Man?

Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

Jihaad is of various kinds, some of which are obligatory upon everyone who is accountable, and some are obligatory upon the community as a whole – if some people undertake them then the rest are relieved of the obligation. And some kinds of jihad are mustahabb."

Full article is here

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/20214/jihad

and the types of Jihad are explained in the link and the link is very intersting for additional knowledge seekers.

Al Qaeda stems from Wahabism, Most of the Al Qaeda top officials came from Wahabi Saudi..

I do agree with you that helping the innocent Palestinians against the oppressive murderous Zionists would indeed be one form of Jihad. In fact it pains me greatly to see Muslims around the world doing nothing or being unable to do anything to stop the wholesale massacre and oppression of their fellow Muslims in Palestine. Sadly those who want to help can't and those who can won't!

Palestinians comprise both Christians and Muslims.

Many a times I have had non Muslims amazed when I have explained to them what the term Jihad actually means according to the Quran and Hadiths. Some of them had truly understood that Jihad meant to "kill all infidels/disbelievers"!

tahsin, still blaming neighbor :)

No, I don't put all the blame on others. I must take some of the blame also.

It's not about "gullibility". It's more to do with expediancy and the needs of the moment.

International politics is dirty business and use of proxies to achieve goals is widespread.

CNN? Seriously? Look I'm no fan of extremists as I have made clear, but certain media personals just make us all look bad when they go about labeling terrorists and extremists with tags like "Wahabis" "Islamists" "Jihadists" etc. And they broadcast these views which are then accepted and lapped up by many people around the world, who in turn then make life difficult for even peace loving Muslims,because they associate the words "Islam" "Jihad" etc to mean terrorism and extremism!

And I agree with Brit. Truly there is more to this than what the media wants us to believe, and greater players are involved in this game than just terrorist funding Saudis!

Brit, so you, instead of setting ur house in order, blame your neighbor who lured and (mis)used you, so gullible?

As painther says, this has been discussed to death.. :o)

you are right about the funding, but one could say that it is proxy.

You have to look at the history..

Russians in Afghanistan

Need to get them out and need to mobilise support

Use Jihad as a reason. Funding by third parties.

about Same time , the Ayatollah starts his come back

Then Chechniya

Then Bosnia

common thread - islam and its use to 'liberate'

Soon the Russians leave, Shah is gone, Bosnia is free, Chechnia is forgotten,

All that is left is radicalised Islamic "jihadists" who are being deserted by the friends who "created' them..

Interesting in hearing on CNN last night that Al Qaeda and current form of Islamist Militancy stems from Wahabis and was coming out of and funded but the Saudis?

Déjà vu !!

This is what we discussed in 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009……just participants changed !!

This is never ending!

The idea of ‘me better then you, rest’ is futile.

Can't we use our energies for better of us!

And it is not a good practice to judge if we do not see what is the idea behind what some one is saying or speaking about.

We as Muslims will never ever dare to say that the prophet PBUH is wrong but we can say that a scholar might be wrong.

Second point is that scholars know and read more than ordinary people when it comes to religion so it makes sense to follow what they say, but some times we have to analyze, and we as Muslims we should always analyze.

Brother, I know you well enough. So if you have any proofs that show I am wrong, please PM me. Barakhallah feek

Suppose you are in India, and a so called Muslim man attacks your family will you or will you not go to the Indian police and courts for justice, though they are a majority non Muslims?

FatimaH,

i'll quite as i know more debate on the topic can put me in trouble. :)

I just edited my comment to you. Please read it again. As I stated if the Muslims themselves were to do acts against Islam that takes them out of the fold of Islam, and if they were to then attack Muslims then the Muslims can take help from the non Muslims against those who went out of the fold of Islam

FatimaH, this is exactly, what i was asking in my post, posted at Sat, 19/01/2013 - 10:49am.

and you really don't know, when U say "why do Muslims need to take help from non Muslims to fight Muslims?"

this is what happening in surrounding throughout the 20th century and recently in 21st century.

No way! Allahu alam...I was referring to taking help from Non Muslims to fight Non Muslims themselves.why do Muslims need to take help from non Muslims to fight Muslims? That is of course wrong. However if a Muslim was to do acts against the Quran and Sunnah, that then takes him out of the fold of Islam, and if he/they were to fight against the Muslims then taking help from the Non Muslims to fight them will not be haram cos they were then not Muslims either.

You have judged me that I read less Quran and hadiths? Know my brother that Allah is the judge for that!

FatimaH, my question was as per Quran, Sunnah & Sharia taking help of non muslims against muslims is permissible or not?

You can read the fatwa by Sheikh Bin Baz with regards to this issue. I will further PM you any info I find.From the sunnah the Prophet took the help of Abu Thalib who was a non Muslim against those who opposed him. And he had dealings with the Jews up until his death, whereby his armor was mortgaged with one. Taking the help of non Muslims is not haram. It's assisting the enemies against Muslims who are themselves innocent that is haram and considered a form of kufr.

Please, can you quote if this had happen once in history with justification of Sunnah and Muslim scholars?

I'm sure, you are not referring Abbasi caliph, who apparently took a neutral position when Changez Khan was attacking on muslims of Khwarezmia.

I can recommend the websites to get such info.besides it's not my opinion. It's the opinion of the Scholars and the Prophet himself took the help of Non Muslims, so how can anyone say its wrong?

As for giving instances, you know as well as I do that the MODs have removed my posts in the past when I include Quranic Ayahs and hadiths during certain debates in the main forum. Would you like then for me to break the rules and get banned? I certainly don't cos I do like this site very much!

Now this topic deviated much from the OP. So I'll try to either stay on track or keep away from this thread

According to evidences from the sunnah, and rulings from great scholars, under certain circumstances, like say to aid against an invading army, it is permissible to get help from Non Muslims to fight against the invaders.

There are very good sites where you can find further elaboration on this topic which I can recommend for you.

Salafi is NOT a sect. It is a term used to describe those who follow the Prophet and the Sahabah, and the Salaf us Saliheen. That is people upon the Quran and Sunnah, who dont indulge in biddahs. People have in recent years misused this term though to create a sect, but that is not what the original term meant.

In fact in a Hadith the Prophet described himself as "Salaf".

FatimaH

Is it fine (let say Halal) for Muslim ruler's to invite or help non muslims for the liberation of a muslim country, Yani fully helping (in terms of land, oil, money etccc...) US and allied christian forces to invade iraq, liberate kuwait, libya and recently under consideration french support against rebels in Mali?

Would love to hear your one line answer.

This thread is going off track, but I will say that OBL did threaten and attack saudi for following the infidels.

infact , both Nomerci and I were in compounds which were attacked with loss of life.

Dear Fathimah I do understand :)

Go look again at how the conversation was going before you showed up. Besides as far as I'm certain, the so called Islamists/Jhadists like OBL have never claimed their fight was for the sake of land, but have always claimed they are on a "jihad" or "holy war".

"It is not only haram but shame on you" As an atheist how would you know what's haram and halal according to Islam(assuming you meant the word haram in a religious context)? Do you know what the Quran and hadiths state about terrorism and such? Am I the one twisting the truth, or is this what the extremists are doing? If according to you, it's me, very well. But I am sure there are people, Muslims and non Muslims who would disagree.

Finally my discussion with you here is over. I have said what I have had to say, and expressed my POV, as you have yours. So let's leave it at that. Agree to disagree.. over and out!

OBL was in Sudan and then Afghanistan, hardly his own land that he was fighting for. Never say him attack the Saudi royal family

I most certainly can, depending on the topic of course. But the thing is we were on the discussion of the so called "Islamists" who commit atrocities in the name of Islam. So I was clarifying to users Nomercie, QDCL and KR why these acts are NOT actually in accordance to Islam, hence I had to refer to Islam here.

As for using non religious wisdom and logic then I'm sure many people,both on and off QL, can explain to you, logically and wisely, why folks like OBL and his motley crew are terrorists and evil,not heroes, and why killing innocent civilians is never ok.

So that's that. Again you have your opinion and I have mine. Yes mine is mostly based on my religious beliefs, so to each their own!

The guy confessed to being an atheist. Now can I say anything from the religion's point of view to prove to him that he is wrong? Nope. Judging by the way he behaves with you and others here, I don't wish to be debating with him further more. Not my cuppa. He is free to believe what he wants.

And my saying peace is just my personal way of saying "adios" and "I'm outta here" nothing more. And no not all Muslims, will do the same. Just my own style, and hope you understand.

and since when french have started acting like a big dog in region?

and there Fathimah is where the problem lies. "Your " people leave those who say and do wrong continue...in peace.

Everyone is free to believe in who and what they wish. It's up to each of us only to convey our belief. So in your opinion OBL and AQ are heroes. Ok very well. But they are not in mine. Again let's agree to disagree. Peace!

Example the fatwas that some of the Saudi Ulamaa gave against OBL and Al Qaida, which promptly earned them the anger and rage of many an extremist and their supporters. But these fatwas are of little value to those astray around the world, specially outside of the GCC. It will not hold any power in any court for example.

Fathimah, yes, I do understand.

But why do the "good" people let the bad people win? Without a fight, without even making an effort?

As I said, they need to pull the bootstraps up, plain and simple.

If the bad people can issue fatwas, so can the good people.

And that is just one example.

I am convinced, that if they really wanted to fix it, they could. Or at least they could make an effort that makes a clear stand to the world. The world will be happy to offer assistance.

I think they just want to avoid controversy and resistance.

What you suggest would have worked had the Muslim Ummah been a unified one. But today around the world you can see that Muslims are not together as one group. Rather they are all divided into various sects, and each sect against the others. So who is gonna deal with whom?

As it is, those who know the religion with true wisdom and insight, who are a very few in number and not with much power or rights, can only call those astray to abandon their acts of transgressions, and the call can either be heeded or ignored, which it sadly is.

Mali issue is just another storm in the teacup.

that's fine, you do that then.

arrow, read the posts. AFTER that post your question. Please.

abbosi,I know. Together with all the others. Am well aware of it.

That there are non Muslims fightinging with what called Islamists?

I personally do not know

Good luck with that ;)

Yes Abbosi, when it comes to what you stand for, I certainly am!

Eh...useless.

ok fine. But can you answer my question?

Abbosi, are non Muslims fighting in the ranks of the so called "Islamists" ?

Fathimah, that effectively means the task is left to outsiders.I can't understand how people can neglect their responsibilities,just wring their hands and say "oh, but what can we do??" Those "wrongdoers" are of the MUSLIM Ummah ! They are the responsibility of that ummah.

I am sorry, but this inaction is counterproductive and casts a dark shadow upon those people. To put it very mildly.

As I said they can only do how much they can with whatever resources they have. You must understand these are not superheroes...only mere mortals. Perhaps soon they will find more effective ways. But in all honesty, until the coming of Jesus/'Isa(Peace Be Upon Him), who will once and for all fight the great battle against evil, I don't think this evil of misguidance and malevolence as an outcome will ever truly end!

I can never condone killing of innocents and oppression, whatever be the reason. Regardless of whichever faith the innocents and the oppressors/wrong doers are. So how can I then "deny" anyone as you say? I condemn evil done by anyone..period. And killing innocent civilians who have done no wrong is an act of evil.

Fathimah, that is surely true. But maybe it is about time they made a bit more of an effort?

Where there is a will there is a way,non?

I'd say it depends on how important this issue is REALLY to them.

And how they REALLY feel about it...:/

No Abbosi, you do not have to. Unless somebody is forcing you to post.....

Easier said than done. I mean what can they do? There is only so much power and might they have. The truth is they cannot do anything else as of now.

Abbosi said "Now, if what you say is ...

"Now, if what you say is indeed so, why don't those Muslims who know what is happening is wrong in light of their religion stand up to those wrong doers?"

because deep inside them, they know that those ones are actually right and that they can not wrong them.

They know that the west is the aggressor and that for every action there is a reaction

Read more: http://www.qatarliving.com/node/9069091#comment-2736906#ixzz2IKSZINx6

Abbosi, unfortunately I do have to agree with you.

Fathimah, as we can see, "warning" them is not particularly successful. So why do they not find other means to get rid of the wrongdoers in THEIR Ummah?

So far they have left this task to "outsiders"...not particularly fair, is it?

And one of the questions was what do you know about this book xxxxxxx?

It was your first time in your life to hear about such a book, your answer will be either correct or wrong and this is related to coincendence but if you read that book and you something's about it then your answer will have a very high probability of being correct and very very small probability it will be wrong and here there is no chance of coincendence.

Why should people love a piece of dirt, that is just absurd. To fight over it even more absurd. Next you will be fighting over barbie dolls or maybe you already teach your kids to do that at nursery. Protect you doll against the evil western kids!

If it is not used properly and by the way in Islam if you kill one life it is like if you kill all and if you save one life it is like if you save all, Islam is the religion of peace.

Those who are interested to read in their own language I have put in my signature a web site iwhich has more than 40 languages.

YES WHAT Is happening in Mali will have side affects in my opinion .

That's just fine what people have to think about me. People thought worse about the Prophets themselves, so who am I? As long as I am clean in God's eyes, and the people are safe from me, ie I don't wrong or oppress anyone, that's all that truly matters.

For all it's worth I have thankfully not been considered a fool yet by anyone. Slightly eccentric maybe but not a fool!!

They surely do. There are scholars who night and day warn those astray about the severity of their actions, and the serious calamities they can bring about by this. But sadly though their teachings are falling on deaf ears more times than not.

We lay people too do stand up against them whenever and however we can, but there is only so much we can do. The truth is they are just very large in number now, and increasing. Grave plight, this habibthy is an understatement really!

Then I guess we will have to agree to disagree, cos as a Muslim I simply cannot leave aside religion when it comes to who and what I condone and condemn.

Alls cool..I know you meant no harm.

Fathima, Your point is noted. I am sorry if my post was offensive to you and other practicing muslims.

Fathimah, difficult situation and surely a grave plight for those "real" Muslims.

Now, if what you say is indeed so, why don't those Muslims who know what is happening is wrong in light of their religion stand up to those wrong doers?

Or are they just letting things be because what is happening now was prophesized and is supposed to happen?

But to love it more than the Prophet and Allah, that you go against Islam in your bid to acquire, defend and guard it? Then that is NOT Islamic. And there are numerous hadiths warning us against such love for the things of this world, that we actually oppose the teachings of Islam for it.

To answer the questions you posed to me: Know that our Prophet himself prophesied that as time goes by we will see more misguided Muslims than those upon His path. So much so that the adherents of the true Islamic faith will be reduced to few and far between, and they will become strangers.

He also said that Muslims will divide into more sects than even the Jews and Christians, and at the head of most of these sects will be demons calling them to destruction.

The reason for this is mainly because the Muslims will abandon seeking knowledge of their religion and what their faith truly commands, and blinded by power, money, the love of land ,etc, they will instead fall into misguidance and blind following of leaders.

Thus it's not the religion to be blamed, it's those who misquote and misuse it to their advantage who are at fault.

You don't support the actions of the extremist terrorists, do you? Even if supposing what you say is true,that they are retaliating for harm done to them, then does two wrongs make a right? So if one side kills innocents is the other side supposed to kill innocents too? I don't know about you, but according to my religious beliefs, that is just wrong! We don't go against the teachings of our Prophet..period!

Fathimah, Abbosi is a good example of what i posted earlier...what do you say?

Abbosi, you are free to to say that.

I don't know Fathimah...they seem to be convinced that they do know it all though...:/

what i find interesting is this :

I see a lot of people here on QL who, to some extent and generally agree to what these "Islamists" believe.

They despise the West , for various reasons and they defend those Islamists.

That makes me wonder, if there are so many people on QL, how many more are there world wide?

And all those people are wrong? they are not true Muslims? They all are misgiuded?

That is quite surprising to me!

IF this is so, then I'd say something has seriously gone wrong with the teaching of Islam....

How can that be?

True that...but then what do these people know about Islam really?

The term Salafi actually refers to one who practices Islam according to the Prophet, His Companions, and the Pious predecessors known as "Salaf us Saliheen". So in actuality the Extremists(Khawarij) who the Prophet himself described as the "dogs of hellfire" are NOT Salafis. They are Extremists and Terrorists and enemies of Islam. And calling them Salfis is an insult to any practicing Muslim who hates and condemns their evil.

I understand you call them that cos that's what they like to call themselves, but I'm only explaining to you why from a Muslim's POV, these demons do not deserve such terms.

These extremists are pretty busy waging war all over the place....in the name of peaceful Islam...;)

Yes some Saudis do, and that too under wraps, but maybe you are not aware that the extremists terrorists actually refer to the Government of Saudi as "Kufar" "Hypocrites" "Disbelievers" etc because they DON'T support them.

They refer to the pious scholars, who call them out, as "Scholars for Dollars" because they don't support them, and encourage the government of Saudi to have taken the help of the US against them. And majority of these scholars are from Saudi too. Hence the extremists aka Khawarij hate Saudis the most and have in fact waged war against them as a State.

Nail on the head. Saudi is as bad as Israel for terrorists activities and oppression. The Israelis do it themselves and the Saudis hide behind the funding.

France has a definite stake in Mali and its move was based on mutual interests of French and Malian government. So, I would not call it intervention. Direct military retaliation by French forces never happened before the UN approval.

We all understand that due to KSA's funding for promotion of Islam, these Salafis have developed a deep rooted network in many countries and working for their own interests. As said earlier in this thread, this funding needs to be stopped.

The French intervened first and then went to the U.N for official approval because they realised that they would neet the participation of more countries.

I don't really care about the French. my concern is more with the British government getting us involved. The result being innocent civilian contractors in another country getting killed.

This isn't an intervention as the military help to Mali was a mutual decision based on mutual interests and approved by UN Council. It is also well within the regulations of UN concerning bilateral military engagements between two member countries.

The Malian government initiated this to protect vulnerable people of its country that its unable to do itself. In the name of Sharia these extremists want to establish their supremacy in Mali...its evidently a struggle for power.

France has definite interests in Mali as some 6000 french are living there and France is running many businesses there. Its understandable that they would be interested to protect them.

Also, it has nothing to do with Zionism! Its a local struggle for supremacy. We all know from where these Salafis are being funded in many countries and for what purpose but unfortunately there is no easy way to stop it.

I have no love for the zionists myself but what happens in Mali and Algeria is nothing to do with them. It's a bit like saying pussy riot were jailed due to Qatar buying harrods. Completely unrelated

What has religious oppressors of the worst kind got to do with zionists? They said that they want to impose their version of sharia law on the population against their wishes. Your ignorance and blind hate is not painting you in a good light

well, apparently the French do at the moment. also, the neighbouring countries have closed their borders when this conflict started! Nice people...NOT.

The Islamic oppressors in Mali are have taken over the north of the country against that's populations wishes and the army of Mali is rubbish. I could beat it with a stick after 20 pints of fosters. The other countries around Mali are equally as useless. The people of Mali are crying out for help as the majority do not want to live under strict Sharia law. Who speaks for them?

Which goes back to what I first said: the motive is everything.What the outcome will be and/or how it will be received will ultimately depend on the intention. Perhaps those that intervene have ulterior motives, but what choice do the weaker nations have? They have to but concentrate on the here and now, and deal with the predicament at hand, and employ the help of those willing and more able than them.

None of these powerful countries are inervening because of their humanistic feelings towards the poor guys. It's all about what type of interest they have in this country. I'm not blaming them; I'm just saying we have to know better than imagining that USA invaded Iraq to promote democracy.

are defending the Goods every where from Veitnam to Mali?!!!!!

My questions were to Hislam.

we stop knowing right from wrong, and that we start making excuses for wrongdoers assuming they must have their reasons? Is not the two, good and evil, sometimes easily distinguished by evidences and signs? If someone is doing something atrocious like killing innocents, raping, terrorizing, looting, oppressing, etc are they not evil whatever they claim to be their reasons for doing so?

Evil Vs. Good is too naive.

Aren't we grown-ups enough to stop thinking of our side as the Good and the all others as "Evil"

U r absolutely right....

Why not Thelonius.....Beverly hills, Cannes, NY, Baghdad, Riyadh, Sanaa, London, Cairo.....the choices are never ending....pick em, one by one.

The French intervened in Mali. The hostages were taken in Algeria, nearly 1800 miles away

Brit, that is the exact reason why I say we must fight the ROOT, the suppliers and financiers of this menace.

But they knew the situation as well, did they not? I assume they were still there by choice and didn't wish to be scared away. Either ways in any war against evil even those on the right will perish, but it goes back to what was their original motive then.

These were expatriate workers employed at an installation in Algeria. They were not fighting against anyone.

If my loved one was killed fighting evil doers, be it my husband or even my child, I will be proud of them. They will be, In Sha Allah, martyrs and heroes, something those terrorists are not though they so desire it!

Wonder what we would say if it was a loved one who was held hostage or murdered :O(

of the country in question who chose to intervene. Did they chose to do so to help the oppressed and weak or because of some personal gain. If it's the former then know that when you chose to do something of good to another not always will the outcome be as positive as you hoped. There maybe negative reactions and in this case tragedies, but one needs to focus on what will be the greater remuneration: the end of terror and oppression of innocents.

Anyone who knowingly kills innocents, whatever be their motive, are murderers and evil-doers, and they must be stopped.

tipu-sword before that...tetley corus JLR Harrods followed later ...:)

as per media reports they had to auction mahatma gandhi glasses for an huge amount in times of crisis

BG your history is eccentric, one sided :)

some will blame american or british and some will blame the middle east and the story will go on like this

Y is it always tht certain ppl go to war riddled countries and for wht, Look at Burma for 1, missions and preachers and dr's go in to help ppl and when they r killed the world or their countries wanna invade and start ww's....I say leave them let them kill each other and let us the rest of the world not bother....Stay away cause at the end of the day it will always b blamed on the americans or the brits....

Wipe each other out is wht i say...the world is over populated as it is.....

havent seen any Islamist starting world wars or invading other countries

this is international politics which is out of our reach.

now that 500 yrs have gone and they become wealthy have they stopped their looting tradition

Tahsinmim, sorry, but "the other side" , these so called Islamists are of no interest to me anymore. I know enough, thank you very much.

They are the menace of this planet.

BG, 500 yrs back they're not wealthiest,

painther why do they loot but when they say they r the wealthiest and strongest

Brit, maybe the army is not capable?

Also, those Islamists are known to brainwash/bribe people.

After all, this method is used to MAKE people into "Islamists" in the first place.

In last 500 yrs British attacked and/or looted almost all the countries of the world,

Americans, in last 100 yrs attacked and/or covertly harmed almost all countries but a few dozen,

Latest trend is from few filthy rich nations to covertly support groups, who propagate their way of thinking/interests,

Sometimes they work in sync, at times otherwise; rest, the ordinaries, pay price

Why not just arm the armyand offer logistical support.

So we should bow to anyone who threatens us with violence?

Where on earth since the term "country" was created did this happen?

if they can kill millions in iraq n afghan n no action as BB said its normal

Brite - I say this is normal.

Yes and no. Yes, because the people who are against those Islamists do need help. The Islamists are well funded and have loads of resources.

The people who do not want to live under this oppression do not have anything to fight them with.

No, because these Islamists are a sneaky lot and fight like cowards...not something that is easy to deal with and we will lose good people in this fight.....