Saudi cleric calls for death to infidels
Death to people with ideas other than mine! :P
Saudi cleric backs gender segregation with a fatwa
Reuters/Riyadh
A prominent Saudi cleric has issued an edict calling for opponents of the kingdom’s strict segregation of men and women to be put to death if they refuse to abandon their ideas.
Sheikh Abdul-Rahman al-Barrak said in a fatwa the mixing of genders at the workplace or in education “as advocated by modernisers” is prohibited because it allows “sight of what is forbidden, and forbidden talk between men and women”.
“All of this leads to whatever ensues,” he said in the text of the fatwa published on his website (albarrak.islamlight.net).
“Whoever allows this mixing ... allows forbidden things, and whoever allows them is an infidel and this means defection from Islam ... Either he retracts or he must be killed ... because he disavows and does not observe the Shariah,” Barrak said.
“Anyone who accepts that his daughter, sister or wife works with men or attend mixed-gender schooling cares little about his honour and this is a type of pimping,” Barrak said.
Barrak does not hold a government position.
In 2008, Barrak issued a fatwa that two Saudi writers should be tried for apostasy for their “heretical articles” and put to death if they did not repent after the two wrote articles that questioned the view in Saudi Arabia that Christians and Jews should be considered unbelievers.
He has also denounced Shias as “infidels” in another edict that coincided with sectarian tensions in Iraq.
blablabla,
I have no more comments about the sad reality of Saudi Arabia.
SalsaHolic,
It's only in the GCC countries where this extremism seems to be partially acceptable.
As you well said, other Muslim countries in the Middle East, North Africa and Asia are far ahead in progress.
Not being racist,but I believe that scholars from Gulf in genreal and SA in specific have the strangest and the extremist Fatwas ever. I think that is just an influence of environment where they were raised. in other Arab countries such as Egypt, Syria, and even Palestine which is partially controlled by Hamas, you wont hear such fatwas. in Gaza where Hamas is in control, few universities are mixed and women are allowed to work alongside men. Nobody is even bothered about segregation or thinking maniacly like this crazy man.
what really annoys me more about this stupid Fatwa is the killing idea. I dont have a problem with him saying his opinion and objection to mix genders and he is entitled to what he thinks, but to kill the majorty of humanity becuase they dont agree with him is just crazy.
one last point regarding people from SA, and becuase they were forced to believe in certain things since they were kids, when they go out of SA, espcially to the west, they just become maniacs about pleasures of all sorts as they try to fulfill what they missed over the past years.
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You have probably come across "mad" people in the street incessantly talking or muttering to themselves. Well, that's not much different from what you and all other "normal" people do, except that you dont do it out loud.
Nic, I think there is nothing wrong with segregation if practiced willingly but calling heads of those who don't is just rubbish and condemnable. Segregation of sexes is encouraged by Islam and there is no way to convince muslims other way. The fact is that Saudi citizens are more than willing to follow the islamic code of conduct hence their laws are unanimous and driven by the holiness of land. Hence there is no surprise if his fatwa finds acceptance among saudi citizens.
Straight Arrow,
Then we reached an agreement!
It's all about education and not segregation!
I just asked you this because you wrote in your first comment: "It is safer to segregate for men and women".
Anyway, we all agree that this “scholar” is wrong and he is causing a lot of damage and sufferance to innocent people by spreading hate and promoting aggressive behavior. He should be condemned, prosecuted and punished accordingly.
Not to mention the damage he is causing on Islam!
I agree Nic. More need to speak out, especially one's here in the Middle East.
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
Olive,
You are right, there are some clerics who voice their condemnation as well as some courage Muslims, but their number is far too insignificant to eco in the Muslim World. And they are just silenced in the middle of accusations of being pro-west, infidels, corrupted, etc...
The Muslim Leaders never step in to endorse them and in my opinion that is why most don’t dare to support these courage Muslims.
Will I be branded as a Bad Atheist for posting views about religion :P
"Live with passion, Die with style"
Your questions:
1 - "Do you consider segregation of genders to be educative?"
Not at all, an educative thing from my Islamic point of view would be to teach other Muslims how to respect each other and also respect non Muslims and understand their way of living and discuss in a nice way and stick as much as we can to our religion belief and understand it properly, understanding our religion and the people around us is a very important step that helps us to deal with different situations.
2 - “Do you believe that males that were all their lives segregated from females, have acquired the skills to live in a society constituted by both genders, living, working and socializing side by side?”
Of course not all of them acquired the skill, but since history all societies are having two genders living togather, and I know some cases where some Arabic people went to study abroad and failed because they have faced things they have never seen before.
The preperation of outside world for these males is an important step that helps them to stand and face the new situations.
Another thing to say:
Education + Good Attitude and behaviour = Good person
Education + Bad Attitude and behaviour = nasty person who can become better when looking at the complete fact.
Sugardady,
You don't see Catholics fighting Protestants elsewhere in the world.
Ireland is a specific local problem; it's more political than religious. Religion is only used as a weapon, not the cause of the dispute!
And sides, Catholics and Protestants as well as their leaders condemn in public loud and clear all violent acts and classify them as terrorism – something you don’t see in the Muslim World.
It was a political dispute sugardady.. Religion just became a tool in that..
Olive ya I remember people being branded bad or fake Muslims here for slightly liberal views..
"Live with passion, Die with style"
They do actually. If I had the inclination I would go back and find a post I put up about a group of clerics in the West who have issued a fatwa against terrorism and who are trying to unite Western Muslims to speak out against it. Funny, when I posted that it only got about 5 responses. :P
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
That's a fact Olive, the silence is caused by fear and it is seen by the aggressors as endorsement.... a terrible vicious cycle that feeds terror!
What I don’t understand is why the Muslim Leaders, like Qatar's Emir and others, speak up against terror in public (I don’t think they fear and their silence is again interpreted as endorsement).
Their voice could do wonders in stopping terror!
I don't think it's support I think it's fear. I know a lot of moderate Muslims and they're very careful of airing their views because they don't want to be called bad Muslims. Look at some of the older threads on this site for example.
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
Can the silence from others be interpreted as their support for this guy?
"Live with passion, Die with style"
This man has No respect for other religion totally fanatic
Straight Arrow,
I have no clue why you brought poverty into the debate. Either your english level or debate skills need to improve!
Anyway, education was what I said and you agreed that it empowers people to live in society respecting each other regardless the gender.
Just answer to these precise 2 questions:
1 - "Do you consider segregation of genders to be educative?"
2 - “Do you believe that males that were all their lives segregated from females, have acquired the skills to live in a society constituted by both genders, living, working and socializing side by side?”
Agree completely with Nic. The Muslim world needs to find a way to unite it's voice and condemn people like this.
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
These fanatics only have a voice because they are not publicly condemned by a united voice of the Muslim World.
This silence enables these fanatics to succeed in spreading their hate and terror amongst the less fortunate ones (the poor and ignorant).
And this is on of the main causes of terrorism!
with such a Ftawa,the killing will not be for westerners only, it will include muslims and arabs who do not live in the KSA.
What about the Saudi kind himself, didnt he allow mixing between genders in the new open university?
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You have probably come across "mad" people in the street incessantly talking or muttering to themselves. Well, that's not much different from what you and all other "normal" people do, except that you dont do it out loud.
Feel sorry for this cleric trying his best to issue decree of some kind that may not be compatible to both devine and human alike. Thats how deviation comes by in some case, and trying to be equal to gods sometimes create sects amoung the faithful. Segeration only makes two seperate teams, thus making progress even more difficult.
he is another abdul wahab in the making.
But no. They're just limited to KSA. Nice try for an Islamic issue. ;-P
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
Mr M.you are right.
If a man speaks like this about Islam in this way he will be arrested and jailed but if these words come from an extremist schoolar like the one mentioned above then you will find thousands of people defending him and also the authorities will act as it never happened.
That man DOES NOT REPRESENT the ideals and teachings of islam and muslims in general,Islam is a religion of PEACE AND BROTHERHOOD..
Olive just posted this article on a website and perhaps 100-200 people may have read it.
But it has come from Reuters, an international news agency that will have sold this article globally. If you search for it in google you will see how many hundreds of newspapers all over the planet printed this story yesterday and today.
Personally I'm glad that articles like this are published, to remind people how dangerous religious lunatics can be. The alternative is to ignore them and pretend they don't exist, resulting in more terrorist attacks.
If you've got a problem with this 'bad news' you should take it up with the person MAKING the news, not spreading it.
Sorry to say that It seems that you dont understand english, I wish we can talk here in formal arabic so you will understand what's my point.
Olive is just copying/pasting from a well recognized news source (Reuters).
She has the right to comment and discuss as long as she is being offensive or bashing anybody.
Me being a Muslim i feel embarrased and at the same time i feel depressed from the circumstances that our religion is living (and caused sometimes by muslims themselves) and the "level" that these schoolars have reached.
May Allah have mercy on all Muslims.
Peace.
And also Olive, because I want her to us what benefit did she get from putting such news.
Remember LeBaNeSeMaN if you read a bad news and you spread the bad news by some mean you will play an important rule in misleading some people, because unfortunately nowadays there are many people who can be affected easily.
LeBaNeSeMaN not all people are well educated to accept and reject others ideas and opinions.
Why does not Olive look at both sides of the pictures?
Straight_Arrow you are blaming people for reading and spreading news? and you call it attack on Islam?
The real attack on Islamic beliefs is from this "schoolar" and his questionable fatwas.
You should blame this man for reflecting a bad image of our religion (which Olive or others deliberately or delibarately may use)
It's his personal opinion and he's entitled to it..
He's a minor cleric with no government support...
It's from the Gulf Times. So blame the Gulf Times not me.
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
Why did Olive pick up this strange schoolar and his Fatwa?
Why Olive does not pick up the good schoolars and their Fatwa?
In my opinion Olive is doing this to show how bad Islam is, really shame on Olive.
Also I think she pick the schoolars which support her idea.
Olive in my opinion does not look at both sides of the picture and never make fair comparison.
Honestly Olive makes some times nice comparisons but unfortunately many of these comparisons are fair because Olive does not look at both sides of the pictures, a good viewer must look at both sides of the picture.
Please defend your point of view.
Finally you agreed with me as you said it is all about education.
Most important than education is the way of education because there is good way and bad way of education.
No education will lead to many bad things such as poverty or drug dealing or prostitution or what ever is bad and the end result will be chaos and this chaos can include fight and murder.
When some one says poverty is not bad? I will ask him/her would you like to be poor and your family as well?
If he/she answer no then this means that poverty is bad, but if they yes I will tell them it is up to you, me personally consider poverty as a thing which ruin the picture of community.
Isn't it our rule to fight poverty? How?
Help the poor people, educate them, give them money.
If your neighbhour is poor and you have fortune, and every day he/she sees you with your new car and clothes, and you never give him/her some money would the neighbour still like you?
I think no he/she will not like you, but if you give them money between time and another, the neighbour may earn this money and finally send his children to school, let us help the poor people.
Ya I keep getting told that one to Oryx. Have yet to see proof though.
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
I have been told Islam was the religion of peace!
Maybe someone forget to tell this cleric
Well, they need no less than a prophet himself to tell that they are wrong! The doors of wisdom obviously closed for some!!
I've heard some of them genesis, pretty paranoid. Unfortunately I do have to agree with Nic in that the major problem is that before now (with Education City) Qatar has never taught its populace critical thinking. The only one's who have learned it are the ones who went overseas. The rest just believe what's told to them.
I'm hoping this will change, but it's not going to be overnight.
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
Apparently not many locals are keen to progress...
you should read all the conspiracy theories some of them are making up that all education reforms are RAND corporation plot to destroy the local youth!!!
hmmm, if this is the case, then this "scholar" will have to eliminate th King of Saudi Arabia, as His Highness King Abdullah built and inaugurated KAUST, a mixed gender university outside Jeddah.
Ah, the machinations and power struggles in the Magic Kingdom.....;)
What comes around, goes around....
Everyone who doesnot agree with him is Infidel ! really fanatic !
Does this guy live int he 21th century!
Genesis,
Not all is lost, I am very pleased to see you here defending assertively your views.
I hope that many other Qataris like you will prevail.
it's really sad when Qatar foundation campaigns caters only for the elite & the outside world. while the majority of the local population have their minds brain-washed by fanatic clerics :(
Ugh, what a shame genesis. Oops just read that and saw it was a Qatari feminist! Jeez, and I thought this place was progressing. :(
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
when a Qatari feminist earlier today ridiculed the strange fatwa about the prohibition on gender mixing on a famous local internet forum (Qatarshares)and called the cleric a fanatic, not only was she been called secular & infidel. But, she was banned!!!
I'm really worried about the upcoming parliament election. As it's obviously a win-win for the salafis :(
Straight Arrow,
I am just sick and tired of the expression "we as whatever".
Can't you bloody think as an individual?
Do you always have to think as "we as whatever".
It sure appears that whatever education you were submitted to, it totally removed you the ability to think independently!
Gosh, just like the sects brain wash their disciples!
You are so naive, or better the school of thoughts you were programmed to follow blindly is so naive to think that men are more angels or saints if they are segregated from women!
Don’t you know that not even societies like yours, who attempt segregation, are successful in eradicating promiscuity?
Man its all about education.
We are all born with animal instincts. Either you are educated to live in society as civilized human being or as you prefer to defend, take a short cut and just segregate men from women.
The second option gives you the illusion that all are pure.
Man, the naïveté of this theory is that you don’t want see what your segregated men do when they have the chance to mingle with the opposite sex, when they leave your country!
One more time, it’s all about education and not segregation!
too much probably because you want other to understand each other opinion with out any basis.
For good understanding we must know about each other belief, and I hope this is applicable for you.
Nic I would like to tell you that many non believers think that Muslims hate non believers and for your information this is not true.
We as Muslims have to be good with all people and approach the people in the peaceful way.
Tell me what are things which I said in this post and you did not like.
tell me only if you want.
qatari_driver
Do you think you can stop this kind of nonsense?
If you have something constructive, well write it, otherwise just read on.......you may learn something!
qatari_driver,
Certain truths have no place here.
If you continue this avenue, soon your posts will be deleted, as the previous one was.
Stone those infidels and cheaters to death!
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* Get out of my WAY! *
* If you don't know me,check my username :::::: *
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Stone those infidels and a cheaters to death!
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* Get out of my WAY! *
* If you don't know me,check my username :::::: *
* *
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SA,
LOL...Are you real?
Do you exist in the XXI century?
You must be a very freaked out person every time you open your eyes to the world that surrounds you.
I pity you and how much your education handicapped you to coexist in a normal contemporaneous society.
PS. Try not to lecture us about what Muslims believe and why they believe. Trust me my friend we know much more about that, than you can imagine. We probably know as much as you, except we don’t patronize people with it! By doing so, you are displaying ignorance about western education which includes the way you think and what makes you think that way!
No it isn't. if less then 2 million out of 10 million are cheating that's not many. That's a few. It's not even an average.
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
if a country has a population of ten milion, 4.5 milion are males and 5.5 milion are females then
28 % of men means that more than 1 milion of men are cheating, is 1 milion not many?
18 % of women means that almost 1 milion of women are cheating, is this not many?
and more strange activist in europe
"After inviting the ire of the international Muslim community by mulling a ban on Burqa, France has now raised a cry opposing Halal menus in restaurants."
its really really worse then ever.
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A lot of lovemaking can unblock a stuffy nose! Dr. Choc
As versi posted elsewhere the number of people who cheat in the West is 28% of men and 18% of women. That is not many and most certainly doesn't justify segregating the sexes.
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
KSA did great efforts for saving ISLAM
lots of fitnas now a days attacking ISLAM
questions and answer
but see Nic, if you accept my point of view let me say this please:
We as Muslims believe that evil (Shetan) exist and this evil chalanged God to spoil all people, so one way of spoiling is that evil will bring bad ideas to the people and one of these bad ideas is the illegal relation between men and women.
So one way which facilitate this idea or make it easy is when there is mixing between genders.
Nic how many couples betrayd each other?
Little, No.
Too much, yes.
What could be the reasons of betrayding?
Many, probably mixing is one of them.
How many men have illegal relation with their female secretaries?
Peobably many, why?
Is not it good to prevent such a risk which comes from mixing between genders.
Nowadays the mixing in the work place is almost every where.
It is the men and women responsibility to understand the impacts.
Speaking between men and women at work is considered normal if it is about work, and it is ok to say good morning, hi, how are you?
It is the men and the women who could bring the risk to each other when they speak about personal issues to each other.
The above is my point of view, and I know it is different from others point of view.
cheers guys.
qatari_driver,
its because of pearls like that extracted text, that many poor and ignorant souls are manipulated into terrorism!
Is this really written???
"Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers,smite at their necks and when youhave caused a bloodbath among them bind a bond firmly on them...
Just wanna ask...
Thanks.
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* Get out of my WAY! *
* If you don't know me,check my username :::::: *
* *
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Straight Arrow,
As someone else told you before, you don't make much sense!
Too bad, like that we can't even debate!
What a truly unfortunate opinion this person has. I feel sorry for him being so utterly narrow-minded.
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Olive,
To be fare not all men, just some of those who were segregated from the opposite sex all their lives and the uncivilized ones, don't you agree?
Uncivilized men do not know how to behave infront of the opposite sex.
But see Nic there will always be a risk when there is mixing between genders at schools, universities, work places, ...etc.
In Arabic we have a very common saying which means:
A must see worse or A worse that can not be avoided.
Again I will speak from the Islamic prespective, it is the belief which protects the man or woman when there is mixing.
It is the responsibility of every one to know to be more civilized person.
There is also another Arabic saying which I would like to share,
Do not be soft so you will be squeezed, and do not be hard so you will be broken.
So Nic it is always good to be in the middle between soft and hard.
Like i said before they are mad people like Taliban, Their mere thought makes me sick.
VIKAS KAUSHIK
Actually Nic if you read my other post about the Ethical Dog you'll realize that animals do know how to behave in front of the opposite sex. So really it's just men that don't. :)
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
Straight Arrow,
Only animals or uncivilized human beings don’t know how to behave in the presence of the opposite sex!
Obviously your Saudi buddy and you assume that all man don’t know how to behave in such situation! That is why it's "safer" the segregation?
It may happen indeed when you segregate genders since early age all through life!
Pathetic... yet again!
for men and women, I will speak from an Islamic point of view:
Al Barak is well known as a very restric schoolar, which the majority of Muslims does not agree with his opinions.
Asking for death for those who allow mixing between genders is too much.
If a Muslim man does not want his daughter or son to work in a mixed place then it is up the father and mother them selves.
These people are always right, specially the Saudi version of it!
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
"Resident Attention Seeker"
How could any one with a bit of sense pay any attention to what these guys say or impose on others regardless their degree of fanatism!?
I just feel sorry for the victims trapped under the control of these beasts!
Well funny to us but some people take this stuff very seriously..
I have been branded an infidel number of times by people in real life and I am not too comfortable about these fatwas...
"Live with passion, Die with style"
I second that, Olive!
Obviously I should have posted this under Funnies.
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
yaaaawwnnn...so whats new? Hez some nutjob radical cleric and hez doing his job. which is issuing fatwas. Same s5it different day.
LOL. I agree Texas Ranger. I wish I could put to death anyone who doesn't agree with me :)
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
unintentionally funny!
All salafists have the same ideology...
btw, Salafists in Qatar are not much differnt
call for segregation in the workplace/education institutes is in the top of their agenda
For the past few years the word-war between salafists & liberals have expanded From newspapers, Pan Arab Satellite TV shows to online-public forum.
In all their debates, the salafists have described liberals as secular & called them "Infidels"
Uh oh.. Remind me never to visit Saudi...
"Live with passion, Die with style"
cleric was drunk or was struck in the head by a bedoun.
He need to know that male and female stand together and pray in Makkah and take rounds together with strangers around haram go try your Fatwa there first.